Religious Topics and Questions

[MaddSkillz]

well instead of going back and forth it is obvious that you want believe certain things instead of looking at things from an open mind..when you make comments like "There is nothing here about the gospel, nothing about faith.", i understand that you have your mind made up at this point, i believe there is a ton to be learned whether you look at it as a parable or not... there are numerous things within my personal life and decisions i am making right now that are partly based on the ideas that taught in this passage/parable (or whatever you want to call it...).. it just seems like you feel like alot of the bible has no point because it doesn't fit in with your beliefs (hell, upset the rich man is in hell or whatever you want to call it, because in your words he wore nice things, which is not what it was saying, etc..), which is fine just be careful about talking down to me because i do believe the whole bible...

I'm not talking down to you at all. I'm asking valid questions. I want to know how you conclude where to draw the line between a literal and figurative interpretation of these parables. Which stories are literal and which are figurative? Then within the parables or true incidents, which parts to take literal and which parts to take figurative? It's just interesting to me.

My mind is open, I just don't read anything into scripture anymore.

 

[Droberts]

Using the Bible for its examples of what God considers good is treacherous ground. Unless you ignore the entire Old Testament.

i dunno, i'm pretty fond of that whole if a woman assults a man's genitals you are to cut off her hands "without mercy" thing. i think that part musta been dictated in person by the voice of god himself.

it sounds pretty "good" to me

 

[Progun223]

The Bible is not a buffet where you can pick and choose the parts you like and pass over the parts you disagree with. You are either all in, or all out. The Bible is either the infallible, inerrant holy Word of God, or it is not. It is either all true or all false. Either Jesus is who He says He is, or He is a liar and fraud. God cannot be a God of love without also being a God of wrath. According to the Bible, Jesus is the only way to Heaven (John 14:6) According to Jesus, there is a literal Hell, and most people are going there. (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 5:29-30, Matthew 10:28, Matthew, 18:9, Matthew, 23:33, Matthew, 23:15, Mark 9:43, Mark 9:45, Mark 9:47, Luke 12:5, 2 Peter 2:4) You are either a follower of the real Jesus and the real God of the Bible, or you are not. What you can't do is invent a Jesus to fit your own personal theology. You cannot straddle the fence concerning Jesus Christ. All in or all out.

 

[MaddSkillz]

The Bible is not a buffet where you can pick and choose the parts you like and pass over the parts you disagree with. You are either all in, or all out. The Bible is either the infallible, inerrant holy Word of God, or it is not. It is either all true or all false. Either Jesus is who He says He is, or He is a liar and fraud. God cannot be a God of love without also being a God of wrath. According to the Bible, Jesus is the only way to Heaven (John 14:6) According to Jesus, there is a literal Hell, and most people are going there. (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 5:29-30, Matthew 10:28, Matthew, 18:9, Matthew, 23:33, Matthew, 23:15, Mark 9:43, Mark 9:45, Mark 9:47, Luke 12:5, 2 Peter 2:4) You are either a follower of the real Jesus and the real God of the Bible, or you are not. What you can't do is invent a Jesus to fit your own personal theology. You cannot straddle the fence concerning Jesus Christ. All in or all out.

Which Bible? As you can see in my illustration below, the bible doesn't appear to be "infallible."

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

This is the King James Version.... So which one is it? Does Jesus reign forever and ever or does He reign only until He has put all enemies under His feet?

The point is, it has become inaccurate. I believe in the language it was written it was infallible but we don't have the luxury... We have to search it out because minute and very significant principles have been lost or created due to bad translation or interpretation.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

I'm not talking down to you at all. I'm asking valid questions. I want to know how you conclude where to draw the line between a literal and figurative interpretation of these parables. Which stories are literal and which are figurative? Then within the parables or true incidents, which parts to take literal and which parts to take figurative? It's just interesting to me.

My mind is open, I just don't read anything into scripture anymore.

alight sorry if i read you wrong (slightly off topic, but this is the most fun i had on OSA ever!!! i love this stuff)

couple of things you look at
1. specific name mentioned
2. literary style is different (this is a big one)
3. it was after he had a break from the parables, taught about marriage, then brought this up, so i don't believe the previous can be applied...
4. there is usually a "hidden" lesson in parables (which there doesn't appear to be here, it is straightforward..)

it would take me forever to type the differences in this story from the other, with that being said can i say i am 100% positive that it is not a parable, no not at all, you may be right on this point and i will readily admit that.... the bigger point is whether a parable or not, i believe there is some very valid teaching that occurs here..

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

also this is a great book that discusses what people have made up about hell and what is truth... Madd i am in edmond also, i could get you a copy for free if you want..
http://www.amazon.com/Erasing-Hell-...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312905103&sr=1-1

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

Which Bible? As you can see in my illustration below, the bible doesn't appear to be "infallible."

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

This is the King James Version.... So which one is it? Does Jesus reign forever and ever or does He reign only until He has put all enemies under His feet?

The point is, it has become inaccurate. I believe in the language it was written it was infallible but we don't have the luxury... We have to search it out because minute and very significant principles have been lost or created due to bad translation or interpretation.

This could go on and on with the "contradictions", so there is no way i can address them all individually, but 1 cor is in reference to Death (being the last enemy) which revelation expounds upon saying once death is over he reigns forever (in heaven)... so it goes hand in hand, no contradiction..

 

[MaddSkillz]

This could go on and on with the "contradictions", so there is no way i can address them all individually, but 1 cor is in reference to Death (being the last enemy) which revelation expounds upon saying once death is over he reigns forever (in heaven)... so it goes hand in hand, no contradiction..

No, it is a contradiction. It's talking about the reign of Christ in both verses. One limits Him only until He's put all enemies under his feet and the other says He will reign forever and ever. It is a contradiction. It's talking about the same thing. The reign of Christ. You have to read into it and complicate it to say it doesn't contradict. But if you read it, it's the same subject matter and the time in which He reigns is different. It is very much a contradiction.

And I'm glad you brought up death. It is an enemy yet somehow we've come to believe that at death, we're delivered unto this perfect place of heaven where there's no tears, no sin and everyone is happy. Doesn't sound much like an enemy to me. But still, nobody has shown me in scripture where we get the idea that we go to heaven or this make believe place called "hell" at death.

 

[Progun223]

Which Bible? As you can see in my illustration below, the bible doesn't appear to be "infallible."

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

This is the King James Version.... So which one is it? Does Jesus reign forever and ever or does He reign only until He has put all enemies under His feet?

The point is, it has become inaccurate. I believe in the language it was written it was infallible but we don't have the luxury... We have to search it out because minute and very significant principles have been lost or created due to bad translation or interpretation.

That is my whole point. I don't agree with you, but in your opinion the Bible has discrepancies and errors. If that is the case then you need to completely discount the whole thing. It is either perfect or a fraud. What you cannot do is invent your own god based upon your perceived discrepancies of the true God.

 

[gillman7]

It's all people without exception.

That is Universalism. I know you said you are not a Univeralist, but if that is what you think, that is the basis for Universalism

i think if anyone, regardless of age, race, sex, religious affiliation, & the era in which he/she existed, believes in a single religion to a point where they accept that its doctrine has a real possibility of actually being true, then one must also accept that all other religions, including ones that have come and gone in the thousands of years man has walked the earth, also have the possibility of being true.
Edited to save space

There are so many illogical and random statements in this post, I can't even know where to start.

I think the case is made very well that these places are not the place we all would call "hell." I think scripture supports the idea very well.

I can see why if you are believing as a Universalist does, why you don't believe in a seperation between heaven and hell. As I said, I am not a Universalist, and we will disagree on this point.

So when someone prays for the recovery or safety of another, it's not to actually help that person because that person's fate is already known and according to God's plan. Instead, it's to show God that you know He's in control? Then what's the point of praying for someone else? Just say your normal prayers and thanks and be done with it; asking God for help won't change his mind.


Unless we're going to delve into a "many worlds theory" of quantum mechanics where God's plan is not a linear plan but instead a decision tree encompasing the entire universe such that no matter what choice you take, God knows all events after that decision and acts accordingly. But then you have a question of souls. If each branch in the decision tree contain an entirely new universe, as the theory states, does each of those universes contain a copy of you, your soul, God, and Heaven? It would make more sense if God was outside the multiverse, as previously mentioned, so then does God preside over an infinite number of Heavens and Universes? Or perhaps once a decision is made, do all other parallel and older branches instantly collapse into one, such that there is only one current universe but an infinite number of future universes?

Is there really a zen thread?

And yet Scripture says that He heard the prayers of his people and in some cases withheld of offered to withhold his judgement. I need to research the references, sorry working.

The whole quantum thing is a Star Trek/Steven Hawking kind of thing. I think some people use it to try and sound intellectual, and ends up being a red herring.

Enjoyed the thread, hitting the road, can't post for a while, have fun!!