Religious Topics and Questions

[Progun223]

Maddskillz, I love you man. I hope you find the true answers you are looking for, and I hope you come back to the faith. I've read all the posts on this thread. There are some solid apologists on here, props to all you guys defending the true faith. I'm not real old, but I've lived long enough to know that no amount of evidence can cause a true believer to not believe, and no amount of proof can cause a hardened skeptic to believe. I'm praying for you. If you ever need anything, I'm only about 45 minutes away. Take care. Jeff.

 

[jcizzle]

Does it matter? I don't mean does it matter if Christ saves us. What I mean is does it matter if we understand EXACTLY how it all works? I don't understand all of how my TV works. But I watch it anyhow.

Faith is just that. Faith. I have faith in and believe that God is just, true, righteous and that He has a plan of how he deals with those things and it is just, true and righteous regardless if I know and understand His plan or not. I also know that regardless of other's opportunities, I was given an opportunity. I questioned things, and choose to believe. I also know that Jesus told us to go into all the world so I do my best to find ways in my day to get word of the love of God out to others.

Read this http://www.youversion.com/bible/nlt/ezek/34/2 I believe we are like the Shepherds mentioned in Ezekiel 34:2. Because I have been blessed with the opportunity to be introduced to Christ and receive his blessed salvation, it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to share the word and bring it to others. Some people look at things as a matter of life and death. This is a matter of eternal life and eternal death.

I'm not a bible banger but do share his word with a sense of urgency. Though others will be dealt with in their way, I'm responsible for how I try to reach people. Every day I tell myself Jehovah Nissi (The Lord is my Banner). He's the logo on my shirt, banner/flag I fly and my purpose in whatever I do from missions, to the way I interact with clients and so on.

 

[jcizzle]

You should read post #162 of this thread. Two different Bibles, two different ideas.. The faith of Christ or Faith in Christ. They are completely different and opposite ideas. But you believe they are both correct?

Interesting.

with YouVersion.com you can highlight a word and go look at the original greek, hebrew or whatever it was written in. Then see the definitions and uses of the word or phrase. You'll notice that just like our language, many have multiple meanings depending on context. Thats once again where Faith comes in. Research it down to original and have faith that Got will use it to speak to you in the way that He intends for it to minister to you.

 

[MaddSkillz]

Maddskillz, I love you man. I hope you find the true answers you are looking for, and I hope you come back to the faith. I've read all the posts on this thread. There are some solid apologists on here, props to all you guys defending the true faith. I'm not real old, but I've lived long enough to know that no amount of evidence can cause a true believer to not believe, and no amount of proof can cause a hardened skeptic to believe. I'm praying for you. If you ever need anything, I'm only about 45 minutes away. Take care. Jeff.

I'm in the faith... I do believe, I just don't believe it's a requirement for immortality.

I have issues with the fundamental approach to salvation, hell, free-will and other things. That's what this thread is about.

 

[gillman7]

Definition of UNIVERSALISM
1often capitalized
a : a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved
b : the principles and practices of a liberal Christian denomination founded in the 18th century originally to uphold belief in universal salvation and now united with Unitarianism
2: something that is universal in scope
3: the state of being universal : universality

Not trying to prove I am right, just sharing the Webster definition. After your post, I wanted to make sure I wasn't using the term incorrectly.

This will be my final post in the thread, I have to go out of town for a week,and will not be online. I am also not posting anymore because originally this thread was about questions, and has become a "why I am right, and you are all wrong" thread, on both sides. I appreciate the communication, and would like to hear from anyone on the thread on PM about discussions. Just to be clear, not butthurt, not offended, and hopefully I have not offended either, but there is some condescension and baiting going on, and I am not going to be a part of it. Thanks for the thread Madskillz!

 

[Koshinn]

The whole quantum thing is a Star Trek/Steven Hawking kind of thing. I think some people use it to try and sound intellectual, and ends up being a red herring.

Star Trek? Red Herring? I'm sure some people do use it to try and sound intellectual, but other intellectual people use it because it's an accepted description of how the universe works that can be repeatedly tested and confirmed. I don't really want to sidetrack this discussion, but if you just stick your head in the sand and ignore the very things that allow us to have this conversation on the Internet, I don't know what to say to you.

I'm trying to find out, essentially, how God works. The paradox is, how can you have free will if God knows the exact path you'll take. The answer may be solved when looking at the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics; you take every path and God knows every path, thus it is not mutually exclusive that you have free will and God has a plan and knows what you will do.

That is, unless the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is incorrect and quantum wave forms do indeed collapse when observed.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

I appreciate the offer but I like I said, the subject matter of these verses is clear. It's the timing of the reign of Christ they are both referring to (I mean, that's exactly what they say) but the timing is different. I honestly don't understand how it can be debated they they're talking about something different... They both talk about the reign of Christ and its timing.

The fact that we're even debating this is a bit discouraging to me. If I handed those verses to someone else and had them read them and tell me the subject matter I'm sure they'd agree with me as to what they're speaking about.

This is what's frustrating to me. I'm reading the verses and it's is very clear what they're talking about, yet you're wanting to tell me they are not talking about what they are talking about. It's very odd!

i guess what is weird to me is you said you were wanting to learn but given the opportunity you decline.. also it is weird that an overwhelming majority of biblical scholars throughout all of history have pretty much agreed on hell (i know you can always find the 2% that disagree), i mean this is not really ever been a "hotly" debated subject among scholars (and no rob bell is not a scholar). I find it weird that you just expect people to ignore plain teaching supported by thousands of years of biblical scholars backing it up.... if it is your opinion fine, but to say that your opinion is clear is just not the case... ask anyone to read the bible where it says

"weeping and gnashing of teeth"
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

i will take your challenge, lets just walk up to people and have them read these verses and ask them if the bible teaches there is a hell and if it is a "nice" place?? i live in edmond, i will even stand on a corner with you and we can just ask random people...... even atheists agree that the bible teaches there is a hell...

 

[Progun223]

I think we can all agree on 1 Timothy 2:12 :~)

 

[MaddSkillz]

i guess what is weird to me is you said you were wanting to learn but given the opportunity you decline.. also it is weird that an overwhelming majority of biblical scholars throughout all of history have pretty much agreed on hell (i know you can always find the 2% that disagree), i mean this is not really ever been a "hotly" debated subject among scholars (and no rob bell is not a scholar). I find it weird that you just expect people to ignore plain teaching supported by thousands of years of biblical scholars backing it up.... if it is your opinion fine, but to say that your opinion is clear is just not the case... ask anyone to read the bible where it says

"weeping and gnashing of teeth"
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.

All of which is in reference to Geenna. A physical place on Earth that Jesus mentioned, yet we turned it into "hell." I've posted some info here regarding hell and it's origin... It really doesn't appear to be biblical at all. And these threats are directed towards old covenant Israel.

I've touched on the parable of Lazarus on the Rich Man and yet you post that. Go a page or two back.

i will take your challenge, lets just walk up to people and have them read these verses and ask them if the bible teaches there is a hell and if it is a "nice" place?? i live in edmond, i will even stand on a corner with you and we can just ask random people...... even atheists agree that the bible teaches there is a hell...

To do that, you'd need to find people versed in Greek and Hebrew. I'm not talking about the English version of the Bible, I'm talking about the Greek words we've derived "hell" from. There's far better translations.

 

[Super Dave]

ahhh, ok see what you are saying... yeah part of the problem is people don't go back to the original greek/hebrew, so they get confused....

Don't forget arabic.

A lot of people forget that where ever and whoever wrote the different books of the bible, it was edited and arranged by men. God may not make mistakes, but man certainly can. There are so many other "books" that were found over the years, and probably there then too, when it was finally organized (by man). I really like to discuss this with our priest. He's very open minded. The Orthodox bible, although officially organized and what not later, dates back to long before the Council of Carthage, which is long before King James. There are over 12 versions.

I go to an Episcopal church. At first, I wasn't too keen on coming in early for Sunday school, but this is exactly the kind of stuff we talk about. It's a pretty good time.


Maddskillz, I haven't read all 30000 pages of this thread, but I think I hear what you are saying. As to what I believe, I think there is one light, and many lamps. There is but one God, but many paths made available for us, to guide us in the way we as different people need to get there. As for Hell, I agree it is not a place. It is right there in the bible. Hell is simply to be without God.