Three Men Arrested After Buying Gun At Gun Show In OKC

[twoguns?]

I wouldn't exactly call it "enabling". Pretty much everyone posting here has stated that they wouldn't sell if they thought something was afoot. Those that will sell knowingly are already breaking a law are they not? Why do we have to keep giving and giving and giving? I think that we are self policing well enough. Sure the "system" gets gamed, but like stated before, it always has and it always will. Criminals are going to be criminals regardless of what restrictions we put on ourselves.

Agreed....I kinda like the zip-tied hands....LOL

.Its not about guns, its about Control

 

[henschman]

In a democracy, people who pass laws that you don't happen to like are not necessarily "tyrants", and the people who favor the passage of laws you don't like are not "collaborators". In a democracy, there are laws that are intended to protect a given minority (used here to mean a like-minded group of individuals) from the abuses of the majority. The rub, again, in a democracy, is that the said minority is not accorded absolute protection from all laws it deems unsuitable. You can leave this country and go live under a true tyrant somewhere else in this wide world, but you don't, so I assume it is because you enjoy living under a democratic system and the protections that it affords. Just remember that you, and you alone, aren't the only one relishing the protections afforded by a democratic system. Call it an irrational fear if you want, but people do get upset at the thought of some fool slaughtering 6 and 7 yr old children.

So it isn't tyranny if it is a large mob depriving people of their rights rather than a dictator? What difference does it make to the guy at the business end of the gun whether it is one hand holding the gun, or many? The tyranny of the majority is as bad as any other variety. Tyranny exists whenever anyone violates someone else's rights. People have a right to freely buy and sell anything they want without interference, as long as they aren't hurting anyone else. Those who attempt to infringe on this right are tyrants, and those who cheerlead for them are collaborators.

Making it a little harder for felons to get guns is not worth violating one single person's inalienable rights... much less the rights of tens of millions of people who aren't doing anything wrong. That is monstrously unjust.

 

[okiebryan]

I still haven't heard why gun shows are such a problem that we need a law mandating background checks for all gun show transactions.

Where is the data to show gun shows are a major source of firearms for felons worthy of such attention?

Right here:

In 2000, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) published the "Following the Gun" report. The ATF analyzed more than 1,530 trafficking investigations over a two-and-a-half-year period and found gun shows to be the second leading source of illegally diverted guns in the nation. "Straw purchasing was the most common channel in trafficking investigations." These investigations involved a total of 84,128 firearms that had been diverted from legal to illegal commerce. All told, the report identified more than 26,000 firearms that had been illegally trafficked through gun shows in 212 separate investigations. The report stated that: "A prior review of ATF gun show investigations shows that prohibited persons, such as convicted felons and juveniles, do personally buy firearms at gun shows and gun shows are sources of firearms that are trafficked to such prohibited persons. The gun show review found that firearms were diverted at and through gun shows by straw purchasers, unregulated private sellers, and licensed dealers. Felons were associated with selling or purchasing firearms in 46 percent of the gun show investigations. Firearms that were illegally diverted at or through gun shows were recovered in subsequent crimes, including homicide and robbery, in more than a third of the gun show investigations."

 

[FFTP]

I like the idea of Colorado law for p2p sales in gun shows, but for a flat fee of ten bucks paid by the buyer.

 

[SMS]

Right here:

Ok, so now read your own source.

26K out of 84K guns investigated were acquired by felons at gun shows....and that 26k was divided among, pay attention here, "straw purchasers, unregulated private sellers, and licensed dealers".

So, in your own source, less than a third of the guns investigated came from gun shows and most certainly an even smaller number came from "unregulated private sellers" at those shows since those private sellers are only 1 of the 3 methods of acquiring a gun at shows. So tell me again how regulating the private sale of firearms at gun shows is going to combat the felon/gun "problem" (that's what we are talking about right?).

Can't believe you have stooped to shilling for the ATF when it comes to this discussion...The ATF has zero credibility when it comes to the truth regarding firearms investigations. But if you want to play F##k-F##k games with ATF numbers, this source would lead one to believe that gun shows need to be shut down, not just private sales at gun shows. Which is exactly what they want you to come away with when you read it.

 

[okiebryan]

Ok, so now read your own source.

26K out of 84K guns investigated were acquired by felons at gun shows....and that 26k was divided among, pay attention here, "straw purchasers, unregulated private sellers, and licensed dealers".

So, in your own source, less than a third of the guns investigated came from gun shows and most certainly an even smaller number came from "unregulated private sellers" at those shows since those private sellers are only 1 of the 3 methods of acquiring a gun at shows. So tell me again how regulating the private sale of firearms at gun shows is going to combat the felon/gun "problem"?

Can't believe you have stooped to shilling for the ATF when it comes to this discussion...but if you want to play F##k-F##k games with ATF numbers, this source would lead one to believe that gun shows need to be shut down, not just private sales at gun shows. Which is exactly what they want you to come away with when you read it.

NOW maybe you will understand. I don't care nearly as much about preventing felons from getting guns as I do about keeping felons from buying them from firearm enthusiasts (us) at gun shows. It makes us look like we are the freaking problem, when most of us are doing everything we can to be responsible gun owners, and to show the public that responsible gun owners are nothing to be afraid of.

I'm not stupid enough to think that laws can ever stop every criminal from getting a firearm.

 

[SMS]

NOW maybe you will understand. I don't care nearly as much about preventing felons from getting guns as I do about keeping felons from buying them from firearm enthusiasts (us) at gun shows. It makes us look like we are the freaking problem, when most of us are doing everything we can to be responsible gun owners, and to show the public that responsible gun owners are nothing to be afraid of.

I'm not stupid enough to think that laws can ever stop every criminal from getting a firearm.

...and you think giving in and opening a door to the regulation of private firearm sales, in any venue, is the answer? Once you hand them private sales at gun shows on a golden platter, they be coming for all private sales.

"They" will never stop vilifying us for being "gun owners". The stage is set, as evidenced by gun owners in New York being outed in the paper like sexual predators. I'm am not willing to compromise purely for the sake of appeasement and public image.

 

[okiebryan]

The entire point of what I propose is that so long as criminals view gun shows as their "candy store", then that's where a large number of them will go to acquire their guns. Make every sale at a gun show pass a background check, and they will quickly learn that their candy store isn't anymore. Why do you think that criminals don't buy their guns at H&H, Gun World, or Sooner State Pawn? They aren't going to be successful and they know it.

 

[Billybob]

Right here:

Yes the ATF's integrity in gun tracing investigations is legendary(for being criminal and fraudulent).

From the same page...

[In contrast, a Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) report on “Firearms Use by Offenders” found that only 0.8% of prison inmates reported acquiring firearms used in their crimes "At a gun show," with repeat offenders less likely than first-time offenders to report acquiring firearms from a retail source, gun show or flea market. This 2001 study examined data from a 1997 Department of Justice survey of more than 18,000 federal and state prison inmates in 1,409 State prisons and 127 Federal prisons.[20][21] The remaining 99.2% of inmates reported obtaining firearms from other sources, including "From a friend/family member" (36.8%), "Off the street/from a drug dealer" (20.9%), "From a fence/black market source" (9.6%), "From a pawnshop," "From a flea market," "From the victim," or "In a burglary." 9% of inmates replied "Don't Know/Other"]

Of course Bloomberg's investigation is probably unquestionable to some also...

 

[SoonerP226]

I like the idea of Colorado law for p2p sales in gun shows, but for a flat fee of ten bucks paid by the buyer.

I am adamantly opposed to mandatory checks (what can I say, I like living in a free state), but I would like to see an optional check system, maybe with a nominal fee. Perhaps the county sheriff could do it so it wouldn't be a burden on the FFLs? I have friends who set up at shows, and if I'm trading with/selling to/buying from them, I neither need nor want the overhead of going through an FFL, but if I'm selling to some random dude, I'd like to know that I'm not selling to a "prohibited person."