Three Men Arrested After Buying Gun At Gun Show In OKC

[mightymouse]

People have a right to freely buy and sell anything they want without interference, as long as they aren't hurting anyone else. Those who attempt to infringe on this right are tyrants, and those who cheerlead for them are collaborators.

Yeah, right. That's why explosives, incendiary devices, many chemicals, numerous pharmaceutical products and various other dangerous articles are strictly regulated--because tyrants are infringing on the people's right to "freely buy and sell anything they want without interference, as long as they aren't hurting anyone". Maybe you should re-locate to a free country, North Korea, maybe, where you could learn a little about real tyranny. Your feverish dreams about life in America fall a little short of real tyranny.

 

[okiebryan]

I am adamantly opposed to mandatory checks (what can I say, I like living in a free state), but I would like to see an optional check system, maybe with a nominal fee. Perhaps the county sheriff could do it so it wouldn't be a burden on the FFLs? I have friends who set up at shows, and if I'm trading with/selling to/buying from them, I neither need nor want the overhead of going through an FFL, but if I'm selling to some random dude, I'd like to know that I'm not selling to a "prohibited person."

This might actually help, if the "unlicensed dealers" would use this.

 

[okiebryan]

Yes the ATF's integrity in gun tracing investigations is legendary(for being criminal and fraudulent).

From the same page...

[In contrast, a Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) report on “Firearms Use by Offenders” found that only 0.8% of prison inmates reported acquiring firearms used in their crimes "At a gun show," with repeat offenders less likely than first-time offenders to report acquiring firearms from a retail source, gun show or flea market. This 2001 study examined data from a 1997 Department of Justice survey of more than 18,000 federal and state prison inmates in 1,409 State prisons and 127 Federal prisons.[20][21] The remaining 99.2% of inmates reported obtaining firearms from other sources, including "From a friend/family member" (36.8%), "Off the street/from a drug dealer" (20.9%), "From a fence/black market source" (9.6%), "From a pawnshop," "From a flea market," "From the victim," or "In a burglary." 9% of inmates replied "Don't Know/Other"]

Of course Bloomberg's investigation is probably unquestionable to some also...

Yeah, cause criminals always tell the truth... but exactly how have you refuted the data I posted? You asked for data, I gave it to you.

 

[Billybob]

Yeah, cause criminals always tell the truth... but exactly how have you refuted the data I posted? You asked for data, I gave it to you.

And I gave you contrasting data from a source who was not caught red handed instructing dealers to allow illegal sales to "invent" their facts, or participating in other illegal activity.

Gun At Beauty Queen Death Bought By ATF Agent

The inspector general is trying to determine how Agent Gillett’s personal weapon wound up at the crime scene. He told CBS News he sold it to someone over the internet... Agent Gillett insists he did not do anything wrong. He will not name the person who bought it...

However, in a letter to the inspector general, Senator Charles Grassley included three Form 4473’s because Agent Gillett lied on the forms. Lying on these forms is a felony. Instead of providing his address Agent Gillett listed the ATF Phoenix office and a shopping mall.

“Specifically, documentation appears to indicate that during Operation Fast and Furious, Mr. Gillett made multiple firearm purchases at a Federal Firearm Licensee (FFL) in Phoenix,” wrote Senator Grassley. “According to the forms, Mr. Gillett appears to have purchased weapons on December 15, 2009, 2 January 5, 2010, 3 and January 7, 2010. Documents show the residence listed on the Firearms Transaction Record (Form 4473) for two of the gun purchases was the local Phoenix ATF office. For the third purchase, Gillett listed a commercial shopping center in Phoenix as his residence. Clearly, the addresses on the forms do not accurately and truthfully reflect Gillett’s actual residence in Phoenix.”

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/19/Gun-At-Beauty-Queen-Death-Bought-By-ATF-Agent

Aside from that I'm still wondering about your statement in post #24 of this thread, "and removes the competitive advantage that private sellers enjoy over FFLs at gun shows" has to do with keeping felons from buying guns at a show, unless you have more than one dog in this hunt?

 

[okiebryan]

And I gave you contrasting data from a source who was not caught red handed instructing dealers to allow illegal sales to "invent" their facts, or participating in other illegal activity.

Gun At Beauty Queen Death Bought By ATF Agent

The inspector general is trying to determine how Agent Gillett’s personal weapon wound up at the crime scene. He told CBS News he sold it to someone over the internet... Agent Gillett insists he did not do anything wrong. He will not name the person who bought it...

However, in a letter to the inspector general, Senator Charles Grassley included three Form 4473’s because Agent Gillett lied on the forms. Lying on these forms is a felony. Instead of providing his address Agent Gillett listed the ATF Phoenix office and a shopping mall.

“Specifically, documentation appears to indicate that during Operation Fast and Furious, Mr. Gillett made multiple firearm purchases at a Federal Firearm Licensee (FFL) in Phoenix,” wrote Senator Grassley. “According to the forms, Mr. Gillett appears to have purchased weapons on December 15, 2009, 2 January 5, 2010, 3 and January 7, 2010. Documents show the residence listed on the Firearms Transaction Record (Form 4473) for two of the gun purchases was the local Phoenix ATF office. For the third purchase, Gillett listed a commercial shopping center in Phoenix as his residence. Clearly, the addresses on the forms do not accurately and truthfully reflect Gillett’s actual residence in Phoenix.”

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/19/Gun-At-Beauty-Queen-Death-Bought-By-ATF-Agent

Aside from that I'm still wondering about your statement in post #24 of this thread, "and removes the competitive advantage that private sellers enjoy over FFLs at gun shows" has to do with keeping felons from buying guns at a show?

Nothing to do with felons getting guns. That was posted in a list of possible benefits of what I was proposing.

In as far as your refute of ATF data, the study and the stuff you post are 10 years apart, and likely from different people in different areas of the ATF... also under VASTLY different leadership. How is one relevant to the other?

Anyway, you seem to be intent on leading the discussion down some rabbit hole. The bottom line is that before criminals learned how to acquire guns at gun shows, this wasn't a problem. That has changed. We need to do something about it. Or would you prefer that Sen McCarthy do it for to us?

 

[henschman]

Yeah, right. That's why explosives, incendiary devices, many chemicals, numerous pharmaceutical products and various other dangerous articles are strictly regulated--because tyrants are infringing on the people's right to "freely buy and sell anything they want without interference, as long as they aren't hurting anyone". Maybe you should re-locate to a free country, North Korea, maybe, where you could learn a little about real tyranny. Your feverish dreams about life in America fall a little short of real tyranny.

"Not as bad as North Korea" is not my standard for a free society. You are telling me that I should put up with these restrictions on my liberty because they are just small infringements, and don't hardly count as tyranny at all. Certainly not "real tyranny" anyway, whatever that is.

You miss the point that no one has the right to infringe on anyone else's rights even a little bit. And death by 1000 small cuts will kill you just as dead as one big jugular cut.

One thing about Constitutional Republicanism is that it tends to force the enemies of liberty to take this incremental approach. But if you let the deluge of tiny infringements go unchecked, you eventually will wind up in the same place as a dictatorship.

 

[MoBoost]

NICS has no "say" over private transactions
a) 10th Amendment Commerce Clause - feds have no authority over in-state sales
b) Federal and State firearm regulations are different

Therefore, saying "NICS check for private transaction" is one and the same as saying "no more private transactions" - the transactions will have to go through FFL.

Let it process for a second.

What you are proposing is no more private transactions! How long do you think before there is no more private ownership? You might have good intentions - but the only logical path for your thinking is disarming of the public. If you think that will stop criminals from obtaining firearms - just say so, quit beating around the bush.

 

[Billybob]

Nothing to do with felons getting guns. That was posted in a list of possible benefits of what I was proposing.

In as far as your refute of ATF data, the study and the stuff you post are 10 years apart, and likely from different people in different areas of the ATF... also under VASTLY different leadership. How is one relevant to the other?

Anyway, you seem to be intent on leading the discussion down some rabbit hole. The bottom line is that before criminals learned how to acquire guns at gun shows, this wasn't a problem. That has changed. We need to do something about it. Or would you prefer that Sen McCarthy do it for to us?

So there are other benefit$,(for some) besides keeping felons from buying guns, which background checks will not stop because of straw buys and false docs. What will we then be required to do to address those issues? There's the slippery slope down the rabbit hole because criminals will always find a way around the laws so eventually the only answer will be to disarm everyone and we end up like Mexico where only the Gov., the criminals, and the very $elect few have guns.

And why are those in the gun community responsible, maybe if those responsible for controlling criminals and gangs held up their end there wouldn't be so many issues.

As for the other data it was from the Bureau of Justice Statistics not the ATF who were proven to cause and participate in illegal acts to create a need for more regulation. But yeah we shouldn't even think it possible that the ATF would "F&F" the gun shows and for some reason criminals just suddenly learned about gun shows.

 

[Billybob]

Mass shootings are the specific event that has brought this issue to the front, aside from the Columbine shooters, (who used a straw buyer) are there any other mass shootings where it's been proven a gun show buy provided the gun(s) used?

The gun used in the recent shooting of the firemen was also obtained by a straw buy.

 

[okiebryan]

So there are other benefit$,(for some) besides keeping felons from buying guns, which background checks will not stop because of straw buys and false docs. What will we then be required to do to address those issues? There's the slippery slope down the rabbit hole because criminals will always find a way around the laws so eventually the only answer will be to disarm everyone and we end up like Mexico where only the Gov., the criminals, and the very $elect few have guns.

And why are those in the gun community responsible, maybe if those responsible for controlling criminals and gangs held up their end there wouldn't be so many issues.

As for the other data it was from the Bureau of Justice Statistics not the ATF who were proven to cause and participate in illegal acts to create a need for more regulation. But yeah we shouldn't even think it possible that the ATF would "F&F" the gun shows and for some reason criminals just suddenly learned about gun shows.

Slippery slope isn't an argument, it's a logical fallacy. Unless you have evidence that what I propose will more than likely lead, through a series of steps to complete disarmament, then that argument is a fallacious argument.

Did you miss the part where I said this is not as much about preventing any felon from getting any gun, rather preventing criminals from using OUR gun shows to buy guns FROM people like us? I can't think of a better way to prevent that than what I suggest. Can you?

And why are those in the gun community responsible, maybe if those responsible for controlling criminals and gangs held up their end there wouldn't be so many issues.

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. This is something that we can and should control. We need to clean up our own house, especially now that the dirty little secret is out.