TPD Investigation over Community Event

[Billybob]

I've got to admit, this is a difficult situation for me to reconcile.

On the other hand, intellectually I cannot reconcile exactly what prevents a Christian from going to a mosque........

I am not a religious scholar (and I recognize I've made the huge assumption that those who believe it conflicts with their religious beliefs are Christians, in which I include Catholics and Eastern Orthodox) but I am prepping to attend seminary so I'm not totally uneducated in theology and Christian history, but I'm not quite sure what grounds one uses Biblically to oppose going to a mosque if you are not being forced to worship there.

It seems that any grounds one uses Biblically to prevent someone from walking into a community event at a mosque (or any other Christian denomination or Synagogue) is shaky or taken out of context at best.

I know the Captain involved, went to the police academy with him, worked for him, and consider him a friend but I just can't buy the argument. Paul is VERY intelligent and I simply can't grasp his point of view on this.

That said, I 110% support his decision if he truly believes his 1st Amendment rights have been violated and I believe he's smart enough to know for certain and honorable enough not to do it just to make a point.

All in all, it's just a freakin' mess.

Michael Brown

It's said Jesus broke bread with some "unsavory" types, and also went into the Synagogue.

As others have said the issue of whether or not it was "ordered" is more important.

A mess, what if the officer was Jewish?

 

[JB Books]

It's said Jesus broke bread with some "unsavory" types, and also went into the Synagogue.

As others have said the issue of whether or not it was "ordered" is more important.

A mess, what if the officer was Jewish?

A Jewish officer would probably have had less problems with it. Having suffered a lot of persecution, Jews tend to be a little more tolerant of different people. Israelis not so much so.

 

[HMFIC]

I've got to admit, this is a difficult situation for me to reconcile.

On the one hand, I fully support anyone who believes their religious beliefs prevent them from doing something unless it intrudes on the true nature of their job. I think this incident fits this description. It could have easily been filled with volunteers.

On the other hand, intellectually I cannot reconcile exactly what prevents a Christian from going to a mosque........

I am not a religious scholar (and I recognize I've made the huge assumption that those who believe it conflicts with their religious beliefs are Christians, in which I include Catholics and Eastern Orthodox) but I am prepping to attend seminary so I'm not totally uneducated in theology and Christian history, but I'm not quite sure what grounds one uses Biblically to oppose going to a mosque if you are not being forced to worship there.

It seems that any grounds one uses Biblically to prevent someone from walking into a community event at a mosque (or any other Christian denomination or Synagogue) is shaky or taken out of context at best.

I know the Captain involved, went to the police academy with him, worked for him, and consider him a friend but I just can't buy the argument. Paul is VERY intelligent and I simply can't grasp his point of view on this.

That said, I 110% support his decision if he truly believes his 1st Amendment rights have been violated and I believe he's smart enough to know for certain and honorable enough not to do it just to make a point.

All in all, it's just a freakin' mess.

Michael Brown

Good points and I do agree with everything save for understanding the Capt.'s perspective.

I believe (and this is after reading his memo also) that a significant portion of his complaint was being forced to force his subordinates also. Were it his own personal beliefs, perhaps it might not have reached this point, but I do understand the concept of not forcing your subordinates to do something that you personally are not comfortable with. Also, if he honestly believes that it was a violation of his civil rights, he would be opening himself up to being a party of violating theirs as well. He not only sought legal counsel on the matter ahead of time, he also followed through on this with his lawsuit against the chief, so he's walking the walk.

I guess we'll see if a judge agrees or not...

Either way, again I do agree it's a sticky point.

 

[skyydiver]

In addition to what was said above, and regardless of the legalities; the common sense thing for the leaders would have been to just leave it voluntary. The orders were given once they decided that the voluntary participation wasn't going to meet their goal for appearances sake. So while the captain's decision might be on shaky ground, so was that of the Chief / Deputy Chief...IMHO.

 

[Billybob]

A Jewish officer would probably have had less problems with it. Having suffered a lot of persecution, Jews tend to be a little more tolerant of different people. Israelis not so much so.

Yes, but if a Jewish officer had a problem with entering a Mosque, or if a Muslim officer entering a Christian Church as someone mentioned before would it then be a different story?

 

[Billybob]

You sir are brilliant. Never has a movie scene captured the very true persona of a person as the one you have chosen.

Just a lucky guess.

 

[Billybob]

Are you following me? How did you get me on video??????

Astral projection? Or did I just check sterioclipical.com for "dancing lawyer"?

 

[trickydick]

I don't believe this event has taken place yet, isn't it Mar 6?

 

[CiscoKid]

Argh -- I can't believe I read the whole thread.

My take -- the problem here is outside the realm of officers attending an event.

The memo from DC Webster, although less than impressive prose at best, is what it is.
The retort from Captain Fields, again - not a literary work of genius, is what it is.

All correspondence should have ended after Captain Fields retort.
I think too much testosterone took over.
If DC Webster had picked up the phone, and asked Captain Field to have a face to face chat, would this have escalated?
Perhaps, but I think both sides could have come to an amicable resolution.
Once correspondence bounces around the department, people have to avoid losing face.
I blame DC Webster for not being the bigger man.
He should have met face to face, and tried to resolve this, without the use of back and forth memos.
He allowed this to become a bigger situation than it ever should have been.

Of course, I am not a cop -- so my expertise is very limited.
I am however a team lead of a group of people, and frequently see email battles turn into something foolish.
Often I have to tell my boss and teammates to stop sending emails, pick up the phone, and converse like adults.

 

[HMFIC]

Argh -- I can't believe I read the whole thread.

My take -- the problem here is outside the realm of officers attending an event.

The memo from DC Webster, although less than impressive prose at best, is what it is.
The retort from Captain Fields, again - not a literary work of genius, is what it is.

All correspondence should have ended after Captain Fields retort.
I think too much testosterone took over.
If DC Webster had picked up the phone, and asked Captain Field to have a face to face chat, would this have escalated?
Perhaps, but I think both sides could have come to an amicable resolution.
Once correspondence bounces around the department, people have to avoid losing face.
I blame DC Webster for not being the bigger man.
He should have met face to face, and tried to resolve this, without the use of back and forth memos.
He allowed this to become a bigger situation than it ever should have been.

Of course, I am not a cop -- so my expertise is very limited.
I am however a team lead of a group of people, and frequently see email battles turn into something foolish.
Often I have to tell my boss and teammates to stop sending emails, pick up the phone, and converse like adults.

Maybe true but that really doesn't matter now does it?

It's become a nationally broadcast issue.