West Norman shooting yesterday; shooter was CLEET instructor

[user 51785]

I don't think any of us OGs are gonna win any beauty contests. Debates?? If stubbornly refusing to see the evidence right before your eyes, then yes. We get the blue ribbon.

I get ya but I wasn't talking about no beauty contest, I'd be tossed out for sure. It was just the image he put in my mind talking about some old man in a **** measuring contest. not something I wanted to imagine never ever

 

[SMS]

Kottka was arraigned a week ago but no documents are available in OSCN yet. That’s interesting.

 

[THAT Gurl]

Kottka was arraigned a week ago but no documents are available in OSCN yet. That’s interesting.

For some odd reason it feels like EVERYBODY involved wants this one to go away. For a shooting incident that apparently had witnesses, the witnesses have been VERY quiet. When's the last time you saw a case with multiple witnesses where EVERYONE kept their mouths shut. Neither family is talking either. I don't think I've EVER seen a case where EVERYBODY involved took their attorney's advice to NOT TALK. Even Norman PD hasn't released any further statements and I find it hard to believe that reporters aren't asking questions. It IS not the norm, that is for sure.

 

[Shadowrider]

Kottka was arraigned a week ago but no documents are available in OSCN yet. That’s interesting.

Cleveland County is sometimes a bit slow on getting stuff scanned. IDK why that is, but it's something I've noticed. That said, it's usually a couple of days, not this long.

ETA: It says the affidavit is available at the courthouse. IDK the reasoning but sometimes they leave them like this and sometimes they show up available online. I've often wondered if it's just a personnel resource thing or if they have some type of procedure for making them available online. I've never figured that out. NOTE: I have to use OSCN court records often in my work, I don't snoop on people as a hobby or anything.

 

[ramco]

Yep. Just ask Rittenhouse.

A jury’s only response is guilty or not guilty, possibly hung (we can’t agree), never innocent.
Guilty………..we believe he did it
Not guilty……we don’t believe he did it, or he probably did it but the state didn’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Sometimes jury nullification occurs. Jury thinks he did it but for other than evidentiary reasons, they won’t convict. Many think this occurred in the O J Simpson trial.

 

[SoonerP226]

Cleveland County is sometimes a bit slow on getting stuff scanned. IDK why that is, but it's something I've noticed. That said, it's usually a couple of days, not this long.

ETA: It says the affidavit is available at the courthouse. IDK the reasoning but sometimes they leave them like this and sometimes they show up available online. I've often wondered if it's just a personnel resource thing or if they have some type of procedure for making them available online. I've never figured that out. NOTE: I have to use OSCN court records often in my work, I don't snoop on people as a hobby or anything.

I used to know the guy who started OSCN. He told me that part of the problem is that the OK Supreme Court requires electronic filings from all of the courts in Oklahoma, but the officials in the county courthouses who handle the records are locally-elected, so they don't think the folks in OKC should be bossing them around. (And they kinda have a point.)

I don't know if that's the case in Cleveland County, though.

 

[Shadowrider]

I used to know the guy who started OSCN. He told me that part of the problem is that the OK Supreme Court requires electronic filings from all of the courts in Oklahoma, but the officials in the county courthouses who handle the records are locally-elected, so they don't think the folks in OKC should be bossing them around. (And they kinda have a point.)

I don't know if that's the case in Cleveland County, though.

I can certainly see that scenario happening. Some of the locals just do what they want!

 

[SoonerP226]

A jury’s only response is guilty or not guilty, possibly hung (we can’t agree), never innocent.
Guilty………..we believe he did it
Not guilty……we don’t believe he did it, or he probably did it but the state didn’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Sometimes jury nullification occurs. Jury thinks he did it but for other than evidentiary reasons, they won’t convict. Many think this occurred in the O J Simpson trial.

Yep--court proceeding only determine guilt, not innocence, which is why you can only plead Guilty, Not Guilty, or (sometimes) Nolo Contendere. (You can also stand mute, but that's taken as a plea of Not Guilty.)

God help us all if the courts ever start determining innocence.

 

[KOPBET]

A jury’s only response is guilty or not guilty, possibly hung (we can’t agree), never innocent.
Guilty………..we believe he did it
Not guilty……we don’t believe he did it, or he probably did it but the state didn’t prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Sometimes jury nullification occurs. Jury thinks he did it but for other than evidentiary reasons, they won’t convict. Many think this occurred in the O J Simpson trial.

Thank you for your expert legal analysis.
Like I said, ask Kyle Rittenhouse (not the jury) if he is innocent.

 

[Glocktogo]

No, the 8th doesn't apply for crimes like this, we aren't talking about manslaughter, this is 1st degree Murder. I would say he's lucky that bail was set at all, especially considering law. Look below. at article 2 section 8 in the Oklahoma Constitution, seems like 1, 2, & 3 all qualify for bail exception for this case. This charge also carries a minimum sentence of life, and maximum is death, is that excessive too?

Section II-8: Right to bail - Exceptions.
A. All persons shall be bailable by sufficient sureties,
except that bail may be denied for:
1. capital offenses when the proof of guilt is evident, or the
presumption thereof is great; I'd agree that bail should have been denied if proof of guilt was evident. That's not what the judge did.
2. violent offenses; Overly vague and ambiguous, which would not withstand SCOTUS scrutiny if appealed that far. The standard in this event is whether the accused presents a continuing physical threat to the public at large. We all know it's not used the way it's currently written on a regular basis, which further undermines constitutionality.
3. offenses where the maximum sentence may be life
imprisonment or life imprisonment without parole; See answers to 1. and 2. All three speak to bail DENIED, not excessive bail.
4. felony offenses where the person charged with the offense
has been convicted of two or more felony offenses arising out of
different transactions; and Not relevant to the offense in question as it's not a 3rd strike event. At least 3rd strike speaks to pattern of behavior and contiunuing threat to public safety.
5. controlled dangerous substances offenses where the maximum
sentence may be at least ten (10) years imprisonment. Not relevant to the offense in question as it's not drug related. However, that probably wouldn't withstand SCOTUS scrutiny either.

See my replies in red above. Again, the question is one of EXCESSIVE bail, not denial of bail. The latter is defensible, while the former is not.

The fact that these bails aren't being overturned by the courts indicates that they're not deemed to be in violation of the 8th Amendment, not that the 8th doesn't apply.

Or that they didn't receive an order of certiorari. Correlation doesn't equal causation in this matter. Most appeals of this type are dismissed on technical issues. Appeals that exceed the bar for SCOTUS review have to be very carefully written, narrow in scope and still have standing by the time they reach SCOTUS. If an excessive bail appeal was submitted through the formal appeals process, it would most likely no longer have standing by the time it reached SCOTUS. Either an agreement for lowered bail would be reached, or more likely the underlying case would've already gone to trial and no longer have any relevance.