Why The Prefatory Clause In The 2A?

[MadDawg]

Hensch-
I know a bit about riflemen, I was in the Infantry. Quoting bygone era men is good, some historical context. Yes while using the bayonet has little useful killing power, bayonet drill teaches aggressive confident behavior.

But with other means. This isnt 1789, or 1943, or even 1968. IF a nation was so powerful with a rifle behind every blade of grass... then Iraq should have stopped the the Combined Arms Armoured thrusts into Baghdad.

Reading 'M14 Fred' is entertaining but like other works of fiction the choas of war doesnt interfer with the story.

I have no qualms in an armed America, but to think gun owners will defacto 'braver' or more noble is odd, many well trained soldiers beat feet when a Tiger Tank rolled into view.

This is a bit off track from the original topic.

 

[buckeye]

Reading through that .pdf 2nd amendment essay, I notice that the author interprets "regulated" as in the currently used sense of "restricted". I've seen it asserted elsewhere that in the common usage of the day, "well regulated" would've applied in the same sense as with a clock mechanism or piano action. Very different meanings.

 

[WhiteyMacD]

Reading through that .pdf 2nd amendment essay, I notice that the author interprets "regulated" as in the currently used sense of "restricted". I've seen it asserted elsewhere that in the common usage of the day, "well regulated" would've applied in the same sense as with a clock mechanism or piano action. Very different meanings.

I made the same comment in the militia thread (it was applicable there too).

Very true, well regulated meant "properly operating" or "ideal operation", however, when you drill in to it, how do you have a properly operating state ran military force? Rules and Regulations...

This is where I change it from well regulated to heavily scutinized and tightly administered militia (I think those terms are more relative today).

 

[buckeye]

(moved from the other thread)

However, whatever rules the legislature provides to effect military discipline in the militia (i.e. make it function like clockwork) won't have any bearing on the more basic right of the people to keep and bear arms - even though that's what the more restrictive misreadings of the amendment seek to do. Ultimately, it's irrelevant - the "clockwork" militia is predicated on but not the sole reason for an armed populace.

 

[WhiteyMacD]

(moved from the other thread)

However, whatever rules the legislature provides to effect military discipline in the militia (i.e. make it function like clockwork) won't have any bearing on the more basic right of the people to keep and bear arms - even though that's what the more restrictive misreadings of the amendment seek to do. Ultimately, it's irrelevant - the "clockwork" militia is predicated on but not the sole reason for an armed populace.

Not arguing with you, in fact, agreeing.

 

[buckeye]

I suspected as much...

 

[henschman]

Hensch-
I know a bit about riflemen, I was in the Infantry. Quoting bygone era men is good, some historical context. Yes while using the bayonet has little useful killing power, bayonet drill teaches aggressive confident behavior.

But with other means. This isnt 1789, or 1943, or even 1968. IF a nation was so powerful with a rifle behind every blade of grass... then Iraq should have stopped the the Combined Arms Armoured thrusts into Baghdad.

Reading 'M14 Fred' is entertaining but like other works of fiction the choas of war doesnt interfer with the story.

I have no qualms in an armed America, but to think gun owners will defacto 'braver' or more noble is odd, many well trained soldiers beat feet when a Tiger Tank rolled into view.

This is a bit off track from the original topic.

You think Iraq is a nation of Riflemen?!

From what I've heard, yes, lots of them own rifles, but aren't very skilled with them. Even so... they didn't stop the initial invasion, but there is a very determined resistance that is sure giving us hell now.

I know a bit about being a Rifleman myself, being that I'm a Shoot Boss with the Appleseed project, and if you saw the kind of change I have seen in people who have come to our shoots and become a part of the program -- if you saw the renewed excitement about the future of this country and our liberties -- you would have to conclude that being SKILLED AND CONFIDENT IN THE USE OF YOUR GUN, not just a mere GUN OWNER, absolutely makes you a braver and more noble person... and a better, more responsible citizen, to boot.

 

[MadDawg]

Being able to hit a target on a one way range is great, however it is of little use if you dont understand the tactics and capabilities of those who want you to die for your beliefs.

The Appleseed program is great for what it does, I've seen a few classes. But its called cannon fodder for a reason, or perhaps chain gun fodder these days.

What is fire and maneuver? How much dirt does it take to defeat the 25mm chain gun, 30mm cannon, how does a rifleman defeat an Abrams or Bradley? How do you defeat or spoof thermal sights? You going to just wait in your basement? How will you communicate with other units? How will you mass at the point of attack? Will you meet them at the border or wait until they seize the state and try a guerilla war? We taking the fight to DC?

Rifles are great but you better have beaucoup grunt experience or you will do no better than the Iraqi militia.

Well training and some real firepower. But I think its all a publicity stunt for political gain, pains me to think usually straight thinking very realistic Okies are doing this.

You going to be at the Appleseed this weekend? I'll be in the neighborhood.

 

[Glocktogo]

Hensch-
I know a bit about riflemen, I was in the Infantry. Quoting bygone era men is good, some historical context. Yes while using the bayonet has little useful killing power, bayonet drill teaches aggressive confident behavior.

But with other means. This isnt 1789, or 1943, or even 1968. IF a nation was so powerful with a rifle behind every blade of grass... then Iraq should have stopped the the Combined Arms Armoured thrusts into Baghdad.
Reading 'M14 Fred' is entertaining but like other works of fiction the choas of war doesnt interfer with the story.

I have no qualms in an armed America, but to think gun owners will defacto 'braver' or more noble is odd, many well trained soldiers beat feet when a Tiger Tank rolled into view.

This is a bit off track from the original topic.

If we were as oppressed and psychologically beaten as the Iraqi populace was, we might just welcome a foreign invader with a history of rebuilding and leaving too.

Never underestimate your enemy. He may have other ideas on how things are supposed to end.

 

[ldp4570]

If we were as oppressed and psychologically beaten as the Iraqi populace was, we might just welcome a foreign invader with a history of rebuilding and leaving too.

Never underestimate your enemy. He may have other ideas on how things are supposed to end.

Very true, the majority welcomed us there, its the very small minority, and outsiders we were having to fight there. It would be a totally different story for another country to try and invade here, and attempt to take control.

I spent two years in Iraq, and worked with Iraqi's daily, a totally beaten down people by their own leaders prior to our coming there.