Why we gotta have this forum-on-forum hate?: Thread about okshooters on opencarry.org

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Werewolf

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See I don't get this mentality......you'd never see a police officer or security officer attacked if this were true. If armed LEO aren't respected, I think it's pretty naïve to believe that any OC'er will be universally respected too IMO.

Quick note: I never said "universal". I try not to deal in absolutes - we don't live in a digital universe we live in an analog one. There are exceptions to every rule. Carry open doesn't impart a magical shield to anyone but it does act as a deterent IMO.

Why?

In general predators minimize risk. Given the option, they attack from positions of strength. Does a pickpocket working a crowd in a mall pick the guy with a gun on his hip or the dude strolling about without a care in the world oblivious to his surroundings? Do the gang bangers cruising the streets looking to kick some butt, any butt, choose the the high schoolers walking home from band practice or the old man out walking his dog with a full size 1911 on his hip? Does the bank robber walk into a bank with armed guards or one without given the choice? Lots of ifs. Point is criminals are predators. They attack the weak and not the strong. They make the same risk/gain calculations in their heads we all do. Given the option they will avoid confrontation if at all possible. Note: IF possible.

Yet cops who radiate strength and are visibly armed are still attacked and killed every year by criminals. It would seem that the visible gun is not a deterent. It would seem.

Why is a gun less of a deterent for the police yet is a significant deterent for a citizen?

I propose that visibly armed or not the cop would still be attacked. The gun is taken out of the equation. In addition the reasons cops are attacked are very different from the reasons a citizen is attacked and the presence of a visible gun on a police officer's hip is irrelevant. For cops the gun has a deterent value but the deterent value is less than it is for a citizen.

Here's why I believe that.

Cops are not attacked because a criminal wants to rob him/her. How stupid would that be? Criminals - just like in the general population - run the gamut of not too bright thru genius. Even the not too bright if on the prowl to make a quick buck wouldn't try to take on a cop - too risky. Predators avoid risk. Is the gun the deterent or the cop?

Cops are attacked by criminals when the cops catch a criminal in a criminal act. Presence of gun irrelevant.

Criminals attack police officers because they are police officers and that makes them the enemy (think hyaenas attacking a lion). Even then they are attacked and killed only very, very rarely (even one is too many but unfortunately death in the line of duty is part of the job). When a criminal chooses to overtly attack a cop the fact that they are wearing guns and projecting strength becomes irrelevant. The attacker is trying to gain status with his criminal associates or the criminal perceives he has been wronged, embarassed, disrespected, you name it, by the cop and his pride generates the attack. The gun cannot, will not act as a deterent under those circumstances In addition cops represent authority and criminals by their very nature find authority and those who wield it abhorent. Many things can generate an attack on a police officer.

In short: a cop is a target because he is a cop whether he is visibly armed or not. Kind'a reads like I'm proving your point that the gun is not a deterent. And it isn't at least not to the same degree it is for a citizen anyway.

Read on my friend, read on. The fact that police officers are armed, visibly, and relatively few are attacked and killed each year (only 63 so far in 2013 out of all the LEO's in the US) is to me an indicator that being visibly armed is a deterent; not the deterent it is for a visibly armed citizen but still a deterent. Else if it weren't many, many more would be killed each year than are. Lacking the gun as a deterent criminals would run wild and kill 'em all. If visible doesn't deter then why carry open and poke the anti-authority button of every waking criminal? NOTE: in the UK - famous for not arming its cops the number of visibly armed police officers present and on the streets increases every year. Hmmmmmmm....

A visibly armed citizen is a very different thing, though. A citizen is not a cop. They're simply part of the scenery. They're potential targets in the herd. A citizen is a target for crime which is commited to gain wealth be it money, jewelry, cars etc. A criminal wants to get in, get out and do it with the least amount of trouble and risk. When a criminal is choosing a citizen target the openly armed citizen increases the level of risk and that is to be avoided. Thus the gun is a deterent as it is visible evidence of increased risk.

If the citizen has some how wronged the criminal and the criminal seeks to take the citizen out, so to speak, he's gonna do it whether the citizen is openly armed or not. The method for taking out the armed citizen may be more circumspect than the method chose for an unarmed citizen though, or not, either way the visible weapon gives the criminal pause.

To summarize: the visible presence of a weapon that can cause the criminal harm cannot help but act as a deterent. Maybe not every time but as the BHL's like to say, "If it saves even one life....".

NOTE: the above does not apply to crazy criminals of which just like in the general population there are some. Who knows what motivates them?
 

tRidiot

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You're a criminal... do you choose to rob the Tasty-Mart with the full-uniformed cop inside having coffee with some old geezers? Or the Quick-Pik 2 blocks down with no one sitting down having coffee?

No.

Why not???? Well, a gun isn't a deterrent, right? So why would you care if there is a cop there? If you're an average joe-blow criminal, why not just walk in and first thing off the bat, execute the cop sitting there not paying attention to you? Fact is... police presence lowers crime, both planned and opportunistic. Guns or not. Yes, there will be some incidents... but let's look at true, weighted percentages, hmmm? How many police interactions per year with known or suspected criminals, and how many actually die? And those are cops going out LOOKING for criminals, RESPONDING to calls for help. Not average citizens stopping for cups of coffee or a pack of smokes who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when some criminal is looking around for a weapon to use (poor planning) to stick up the Quickie-Mart on a whim.

It's all an elevated risk, elevated punishment threshold. It's pretty simple. I honestly cannot argue much with the people who don't see armed citizens being ANY kind of deterrent to crime. I have known many many many criminals, low-lifes and ne'e'r-do-wells in my life and line of work... and while the crazy ones are more unpredictable, the overwhelmingly vast majority of them are cowards who prey on the weak and defenseless, and they're afraid of dying. Even the cold-blooded murderer I treated last night who was terrified of dying when it absolutely came right down to it. All the bluster in the world goes away when your feet suddenly start to get cold and numb and your vision starts to fade to black, or you can't breathe and you're begging someone to help you... anything to stay here...

In the heat of the moment adrenaline may kick in, but in the planning and scouting phases (which even the dumbest of criminals do to some greater or lesser extent), the sight of an armed citizen or three standing in the way will at the very least give pause.

It's a no-brainer to me. But I am not trying to get anyone to OC, not complaining when they don't, and not telling them they're wrong if they don't, or whatever. For me, it's mostly about a comfort issue.

Jesus...
 

JD8

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However, in the general context of this discussion, it is quite reasonable I believe to take your comments as derogatory towards OCers en masse (or at least a large amount) due to their being "lackadaisical" in their responsibilities re" OCing.

This is true, I believe most are lazy, rather most that I've come across. This however doesn't mean that I don't believe in the concept or would vote against it.

But the numbers don't lie, and the reports from criminals and FBI research and many many sources are quite overwhelming. OC has been legal in many states for many years... and it is undeniably obvious that events like those you seem to fear (normal folks getting accosted for their own weapons) are few and far between. EXCRUCIATINGLY SO.

What numbers? There are statistics on the significance of a OC presence in terms of a crime deterrent? As far as the rest goes, I think you are arguing with yourself in terms of what you believe I fear. If I choose to steer clear of someone wearing a carry rig/method that seems pretty sketchy to me then I'm just playing my odds. If some believe that he creates some sort of bubble of protection just by OC'ing then great, I'm just not on that bus.
 

elance

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I'm pretty sure if you take every second letter and divide by the square root of a prime number and then use blue.... it says "I'm cooler than you."

in no manner shape or form was that my intention or so obviously not the result . lol
i was pressed to provide data or facts to substantiate my claims .

Anyone get this? Translate for me?

lol so sorry , i just tried to show in the past i advocated continued training.
also training comes in many facets. and just because your certified in the latest theorem it doesn't render you untouchable.
basically i was trying to rebut the statement and consensus that OCers lack training and wont search it out .

i like the idea of common sense carry . i believe it starts with pro carry , second let's have another get together for lunch say knotty pine bbq . it's very hard to get across sincerity on the internet , and easier over good food .

attitude training vigilance and prayer
stay safe carry on
elance

i edited this to say i was a ccer first , just like i changed my position on OWB IWB ,i have found what fits me better.
even so i still cc 7 days a week ( when i oc i've still got my bug)
 

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