Why we gotta have this forum-on-forum hate?: Thread about okshooters on opencarry.org

[BadgeBunny]

Anyone get this? Translate for me?

Uhhhh ... I'm not sure but I think he's saying he has a lot of training and books, and that it doesn't really matter that he has a lot of training and books ...

 

[SoonerDVM]

Anyone get this? Translate for me?

Uhhhh ... I'm not sure but I think he's saying he has a lot of training and books, and that it doesn't really matter that he has a lot of training and books ...

I'm pretty sure if you take every second letter and divide by the square root of a prime number and then use blue.... it says "I'm cooler than you."

 

[hrdware]

Most of you know that I'm the President and one of the Founders of the Oklahoma Open Carry Association. First of all, I didn't agree with the premise posted in the thread over on OCDO. There are a lot of regular posters here who support OC, a few who oppose it, but the majority here really don't care one way ot the other. AS IT SHOULD BE.

There have been a couple of things said here that I think are patently false. I've NEVER seen an open carrier say that CC is wrong, as Mr. Books said. Then another comes along and tells us open carry is OK, just don't be doing it when it's not appropriate... according to what someone else thinks is appropriate? Or according to what is legal? I OC every day, everywhere I can legally do so. Saying stuff like "strapping on the hogleg to buy milk" is just silly. I holster my XDs every morning when I get dressed, and that's where it stays all day until I go to bed. I unholster when needed to go into a prohibited place, but otherwise, I OC all the time. I guess some people think I should unholster to stop at the store and buy milk, but frankly I don't give 2 shits what some guy on the internet thinks. Who are you to decide when it's "appropriate" for me to carry in the lawful manner that I choose?

Yes, there is some bully type of talk on this board about OC, but it's such a small amount that it's pretty easy to ignore. Everyone has the right to disagree with what I do or don't do, and I also have the right to not give a damn. I generally don't get into these arguments. It's pointless. But I will say that we should be on the same team working toward the same goals. Open carriers almost universally support concealed carry. Concealed carriers so not universally support open carry. OC or don't, it's up to you to decide what self defense strategy is right for you.

But ridiculing others because they don't choose to live in the box you created for yourself is just a dick move.

Mostly I agree with what okiebryan has said here.

Like okiebryan, I am also one of the Founders of the Oklahoma Open Carry Association. What I say below is my opinion and not specifically that of OKOCA.

I break down the posters here at OSA into the following groups: those that prefer OC, those that don't care, those that prefer CC because they aren't comfortable with OC, those that prefer CC for the "tactical advantage", and those against OC.

Those who are not comfortable enough to OC, shouldn't. It is a carry choice that one has to make and I for one would rather you carry comfortably and be sure of yourself than carry some other way and come off as a nervous nelly.

I do not believe there is any tactical advantage to CC vs OC. I would rather stop the crime before it begins because I am OC than have to stop it during the execution phase. Another person's gun in the hand will beat my draw speed every time. No matter how long or arduous a discussion people have on this topic, I don't think one side will ever convince the other of their beliefs.

Then you have the few that are either completely against OC (because of projecting irrationalities, appearances, or whatever other reasoning they have), or those that are OK with it as long as it fits into their view of the world. IMO, those who think someone should have a "need" to open carry in order to do so are, to me, as bad as those that think you should have a "need" to carry a firearm concealed, or a "need" simply to own a firearm.

I have seen posts in this thread (and I'm going to paraphrase) say they don't post on OCDO because the group over there doesn't like CC. It's a forum devoted to talking about open carry. I wouldn't say they don't like concealed carry, many people there have a CC license for their state, but the topic is about open carry. It's about like saying they don't like long guns because it's against the rules to talk about long guns...that's because the site is geared toward open carry of handguns. I don't go to Chevy forums to talk about the benefits of owning a Ford, why would you expect a niche site to cater to something outside of the focus. One of the nice things about OSA is that it is not a niche forum, there are topics about everything here.

Others have asked about open carry training, I would submit that open carry training is 99% identical to concealed carry training. You still have to worry about movement, using cover and concealment, your backstop, weapon retention, shooting from non-standard positions. The only additional piece of training would be retaining your firearm in the holster if someone should try to grab it. Honestly I think concealed carriers should worry about as well especially now that the CC laws have been relaxed regarding accidental exposure due to the ability to open carry. This extra bit of retention isn't exactly rocket science and even with the most wobbly nylon holster, this retention should be able to be maintained.

Situational awareness on the other hand is completely different. You either have it as part of your personality or you don't. It is very difficult to teach someone situational awareness, you have to modify their behavior and get them to stop looking at what is right in front of them and focus on what is all around them...all the time. Focusing on what is all around you (even behind you) all the time and filtering out what is not needed can be quite a challenge for a lot of people. I used to work in a small retail shop right out of high school. One of the managers would randomly walk up and ask how many people were in the store. Without looking he wanted you to be able to tell him and be within 1 or 2 people.

Some say that OC deteriorates our rights, I say it puts firearms in the light and shows people (those who actually notice) that it's not just the cops and bad guys that carry guns, but law abiding citizens carry firearms as well. To those establishments who don't allow OC but are fine with CC, it is their right to choose to make that decision, it is my right to go someplace else. However many OCers wonder about the logic of the decision. It is because the business doesn't want to turn people away so out of sight means out of mind and everyone can be happy? In OK, it may not be out of the question to ask someone to conceal because you have to have a permit to do either, other states have constitutionally protected OC and permitted CC so asking someone to cover up could be asking them to commit a crime.

Seems a lot of folks at OSA don't want to be painted with the big broad stroke of the brush, but some here have no problem using that brush against those who disagree with them.

All that being said, I do OC virtually every day, when and where I am able and have only had 1 license check, and a couple of positive interactions with other people. I also CC when required (we are not open to the public, no OC at work, but CC is perfectly fine).

 

[JD8]

Others have asked about open carry training, I would submit that open carry training is 99% identical to concealed carry training.

Just thinking of several scenarios off the top of my head, I don't see how anyone could logically say this.

 

[hrdware]

Just thinking of several scenarios off the top of my head, I don't see how anyone could logically say this.

Let's hear them then. Show me that my perceived number is to high.

 

[doorgunner]

I am also a liscened aircraft mechanic and as such I will attempt to translate for élance. Translation as follows; blah blah, jp-8 aviation fuel intake, blah blah, gal with books, more JP-8 with a skydrol hydraulic fluid chaser, mumble mumble just cause you have a liscenes doesn't make you competent, gurgle, if I light my farts I will indeed have an afterburner! Sorry buddy, couldn't resist.

 

[Boehlertaught]

Please submit financials, psych eval and pics ...

I am so reminded of the scene in "Dumb & Dumber" when Jim Carrey says "...so you're saying there's a chance."

 

[JD8]

Let's hear them then. Show me that my perceived number is to high.

You said that open carry training is 99% identical to CC training. Do you believe this because you've taken a CC course that involved CQB scenarios and in turn taken someone that teaches OC situations and the training was the same? Just curious. It's pretty simple...... in several scenarios I don't see how you believe self-defense situations would be identical because of exposure. I'll ask you this, have you taken a CQ course of any type?

I can't see how the OC crowd is anything but lazy here in terms of training. Not one person can reference any legit training when asked. Thus reaffirming the mentality that OC is used as talisman more than anything, which is dangerous IMO.

 

[tRidiot]

You said that open carry training is 99% identical to CC training. Do you believe this because you've taken a CC course that involved CQB scenarios and in turn taken someone that teaches OC situations and the training was the same? Just curious. It's pretty simple...... in several scenarios I don't see how you believe self-defense situations would be identical because of exposure. I'll ask you this, have you taken a CQ course of any type?

I can't see how the OC crowd is anything but lazy here in terms of training. Not one person can reference any legit training when asked. Thus reaffirming the mentality that OC is used as talisman more than anything, which is dangerous IMO.

OMG.... ok, let's also look at the percentage of CC permit holders who have gotten a single lick of formal training outside of that required to get their permit, then. Yes, there are some... but taken as a percentage of the whole, I could feel reasonably confident in proclaiming that number in the state of Oklahoma to be ridiculously infinitesimal.


<edit> Hey, 4,000 posts!

Don't I get a pin or something? Maybe a special badge I can OC in some places (where needed), but CC in others?

 

[Werewolf]

Open carry is awesome. I bought a $3000 gun and $20 holster just so I could expose my ego.

The above is the type of response re: OC that is at the very least annoying to those of us who OC.

Why do so many of the CC proponents assume that OC is a function of ego? Why?

No doubt some do OC for some egocentric reason but I would hazard a guess that most if not all of the OSA membership that OC's on a regular basis (of which I am one - 95% of the time) do not.

Here's why I OC - and my reasons have absolutely nothing to do with ego - in order of priority and I do use a retention holster (L2) and I have had retention training - though the training took place well over 30 years ago.

1) OC is a deterent. I believe this based on both book learning and personal experience with predator behavior.

2) In the event I need to put my weapon into use I can present it and be ready to use it in less than .7 seconds (note: that .7 secs is from about 4 years ago. Probably a bit longer now. I've noticed lately that my reflexes are starting to slow down with age). With CC I'm lucky to have it out and ready to go in less than 1.5 seconds (this too is probably longer now). Some of you guys may be able to pull your weapon out from under a shirt and have it ready to go in less than a second; if so then great. I cannot.

3) Comfort - pure and simple. It's more comfortable to OC.

4) If OC becomes common enough then it will become a non-event for those citizens that are not self defense oriented. It will not make them nervous. Some may even decide they too should become responsible for their own defense and join us. I am not responsible for the feelings of others though there are circumstances extant that practical considerations make it necessary to adjust some actions (like whether or not to OC or CC).

And that's why I OC. Blunt and to the point.

That said: Do I believe that OC has some disadvantages? Sure I do. One disadvantage is that it makes some people nervous. I for one am pretty sure that on at least one occasion since November I've had a man with a gun call made on me. It wasn't a big deal. I showed the officer who showed up my permit and DL and we both went on our seperate ways none the worse for the wear. That's happened ONE time in almost 10 months. I can deal with that. And maybe some good came of it. Maybe the citizen will take less notice and be less nervous the next time she sees "a man with gun" and maybe that particular officer will be a bit less skittish the next time he has to deal with one of us who chooses to OC, maybe.

Any other disadvantages to OC: Not many I would give much credence to. I freely admit that when I'm doing my daily exercise walk in my neighborhood I don't OC - though I used to. 2 reasons. 1st off there are lots of kids around and they invariably ask if I am a policeman (kids are a lot more observant than most adults or at least more willing to verbally notice than their elders). I say no and speak to them for a bit and we move on because they quickly lose interest. In one case the kid asked if I was a Doctor - kids - they connect the dots in the strangest ways some times. Nice kid though. We talk on an almost daily basis now and quite often his mom's sitting on the porch and waves as I walk by and she knows that I am carrying.

The second reason I don't always OC: I've lived in my neighborhood for 26 years. Its not the same neighborhood. I'm not concerned with 1 or even two, let us say less than stellar and younger citizens, deciding they'd like to have a gun just like mine and taking it away from me. But 3 or 4 - they could probably get it if they really wanted it. Is that ever gonna happen? Odds are it won't but if we played the odds then most of us probably wouldn't be carrying at all - OC or CCW.

Push comes to shove - we're all gonna carry the way we feel most comfortable with. We may change a mind or two here or there and an OC'r will switch or a CCW'r will switch or most likely most of us will carry however the mood strikes us on any given day.

One final note: I'm not one of God's most diplomatic creations. But I try and when it comes to this subject going forward I will attempt to be more circumspect in my responses.