Why we gotta have this forum-on-forum hate?: Thread about okshooters on opencarry.org

[JD8]

OMG.... ok, let's also look at the percentage of CC permit holders who have gotten a single lick of formal training outside of that required to get their permit, then. Yes, there are some... but taken as a percentage of the whole, I could feel reasonably confident in proclaiming that number in the state of Oklahoma to be ridiculously infinitesimal.

OMG I agree!! FWIW, I've said the same thing in the importance of training in several CC threads over the years here.

However, what does that have to do with OC? Pointing the finger elsewhere doesn't justify a lack of consideration of training.

 

[Shootin 4 Fun]

The above is the type of response re: OC that is at the very least annoying to those of us who OC.

Why do so many of the CC proponents assume that OC is a function of ego? Why?

No doubt some do OC for some egocentric reason but I would hazard a guess that most if not all of the OSA membership that OC's on a regular basis (of which I am one - 95% of the time) do not.

Here's why I OC in order of priority and I do use a retention holster (L2) and I have had retention training - though the training took place well over 30 years ago.

1) OC is a deterent. I believe this based on both book learning and personal experience with predator behavior.

2) In the event I need to put my weapon into use I can present it and be ready to use it in less than .7 seconds. With CC I'm lucky to have it out and ready to go in less than 1.5 seconds. Some of you guys may be able to pull your weapon out from under a shirt and have it ready to go in less than a second; if so then great. I cannot.

3) Comfort - pure and simple. It's more comfortable to OC.

4) If OC becomes common enough then it will become a non-event for those citizens that are not self defense oriented. It will not make them nervous. Some may even decide they too should become responsible for their own defense and join us. I am not responsible for the feelings of others though there are circumstances extant that practical considerations make it necessary to adjust some actions (like whether or not to OC or CC).

And that's why I OC. Blunt and to the point.

That said: Do I believe that OC has some disadvantages? Sure I do. One disadvantage is that it makes some people nervous. I for one am pretty sure that on at least one occasion since November I've had a man with a gun call made on me. It wasn't a big deal. I showed the officer who showed up my permit and DL and we both went on our seperate ways none the worse for the wear. That's happened ONE time in almost 10 months. I can deal with that. And maybe some good came of it. Maybe the citizen will take less notice and be less nervous the next time she sees "a man with gun" and maybe that particular officer will be a bit less skittish the next time he has to deal with one of us who chooses to OC, maybe.

Any other disadvantages to OC: Not many I would give much credence to. I freely admit that when I'm doing my daily exercise walk in my neighborhood I don't OC - though I used to. 2 reasons. 1st off there are lots of kids around and they invariably ask if I am a policeman (kids are a lot more observant than most adults or at least more willing to verbally notice than their elders). I say no and speak to them for a bit and we move on because they quickly lose interest. In one case the kid asked if I was a Doctor - kids - they connect the dots in the strangest ways some times. Nice kid though. We talk on an almost daily basis now and quite often his mom's sitting on the porch and waves as I walk by and she knows that I am carrying.

The second reason I don't always OC: I've lived in my neighborhood for 26 years. Its not the same neighborhood. I'm not concerned with 1 or even two, let us say less than stellar and younger citizens, deciding they'd like to have a gun just like mine and taking it away from me. But 3 or 4 - they could probably get it if they really wanted it. Is that ever gonna happen? Odds are it won't but if we played the odds then most of us probably wouldn't be carrying at all - OC or CCW.

Push comes to shove - we're all gonna carry the way we feel most comfortable with. We may change a mind or two here or there and an OC'r will switch or a CCW'r will switch or most likely most of us will carry however the mood strikes us on any given day.

One final note: I'm not one of God's most diplomatic creations. But I try and when it comes to this subject going forward I will attempt to be more circumspect in my responses.

You have to read my post immediately following the one you quoted. It was a tongue in cheek remark. I'm a proponent of OC for many of the reasons you listed.

 

[JD8]

1) OC is a deterent. I believe this based on both book learning and personal experience with predator behavior.

See I don't get this mentality......you'd never see a police officer or security officer attacked if this were true. If armed LEO aren't respected, I think it's pretty naïve to believe that any OC'er will be universally respected too IMO.

 

[hrdware]

You said that open carry training is 99% identical to CC training. Do you believe this because you've taken a CC course that involved CQB scenarios and in turn taken someone that teaches OC situations and the training was the same? Just curious. It's pretty simple...... in several scenarios I don't see how you believe self-defense situations would be identical because of exposure. I'll ask you this, have you taken a CQ course of any type?

I can't see how the OC crowd is anything but lazy here in terms of training. Not one person can reference any legit training when asked. Thus reaffirming the mentality that OC is used as talisman more than anything, which is dangerous IMO.

When I use the word "training" in this instance, I am by no means referring to the SDA class. No, I have not yet had the opportunity to take any type of professional CQ class, however I have had a bit of retention instruction from a friend of mine who is a former police officer. No matter the CQ class, as I said before, once the presentation is made, the training should be the same. The difference before the presentation is made is simply retention.

I'd still like an example of a scenario that illustrates a major difference between OC and CC training.

See I don't get this mentality......you'd never see a police officer or security officer attacked if this were true. If armed LEO aren't respected, I think it's pretty naïve to believe that any OC'er will be universally respected too IMO.

Police officers and security guards represent authority, the law abiding citizen does not. If this were the case, you would see law abiding open carriers being routinely attacked in the 40+ states that have some form of open carry. Criminals don't fear the LAC arresting them and or taking them to jail as they do an LEO.

I only know of 2 events where a LAC has been targeted because they were OC. One was a guy at a gas station with bad SA that was approached by 2 people who took his firearm and went in to rob the place. He then followed them in (bad judgement) to try and get his firearm back and was subsequently shot. Another person was sitting in a restaurant eating while OC and was attacked by a mentally unstable person, in the course of the struggle the firearm came out of the holster and went spinning across the floor...no injuries occurred. Neither of these happened in OK.

 

[tRidiot]

OMG I agree!! FWIW, I've said the same thing in the importance of training in several CC threads over the years here.

However, what does that have to do with OC? Pointing the finger elsewhere doesn't justify a lack of consideration of training.

Absolutely not. However, in the general context of this discussion, it is quite reasonable I believe to take your comments as derogatory towards OCers en masse (or at least a large amount) due to their being "lackadaisical" in their responsibilities re" OCing. I am merely pointing out this is NOT a situation limited to OC and is just as prevalent as those who CC. In fact, in my experience on this forum, there are many OCers who DO advocate as such (although many of us have not yet had the time/money/opportunity/inclination to follow through). I also even argued AGAINST the proposed OC requirement for retention holsters and/or training, even though I do use a retention holster 95% of the time when I am OCing. I do try to remain situationally aware, though I am sure it could always be better. We can all always do better.

See I don't get this mentality......you'd never see a police officer or security officer attacked if this were true. If armed LEO aren't respected, I think it's pretty naïve to believe that any OC'er will be universally respected too IMO.

Straw man. Come on, man... No one is saying it is universally respected, no one has ever said it will never happen. But the numbers don't lie, and the reports from criminals and FBI research and many many sources are quite overwhelming. OC has been legal in many states for many years... and it is undeniably obvious that events like those you seem to fear (normal folks getting accosted for their own weapons) are few and far between. EXCRUCIATINGLY SO.

In fact, if you're that worried about it, then wearing a knife on your belt where it can be seen is also, to a lesser degree, irresponsible or inviting problems. Same goes for... lots of situations. Can it happen? Yes, absolutely. Is it a real risk? Yes, absolutely. Is it something we should be aware of and prepare for? Yes, absolutely.

But is it a commonplace-enough occurrence that the possibility of being disarmed and possibly shot with your own weapon outweighs the potential benefit of maybe discouraging some ne'er-do-wells who might have nefarious (there's one of my favorite words again, lol) intentions? And all the other listed benefits vs. cons of OC?

Not to me.

 

[Capm_Spaulding]

I don't think forum vs forum is as big of a problem as inner-forum drama is. I'll let the previous 10 pages of this thread serve as evidence. C'mon guys...

 

[JB Books]

One of these days I'm going to OC a set of my engraved Colt SAAs. Just need to buy some good gun leather.

 

[JB Books]

I don't think forum vs forum is as big of a problem as inner-forum drama is. I'll let the previous 10 pages of this thread serve as evidence. C'mon guys...

We are all about the drama...and bacon.

 

[JCW355]

I love bacon

 

[tRidiot]

One of these days I'm going to OC a set of my engraved Colt SAAs. Just need to buy some good gun leather.

Might be hard to find some good "retention" holsters for those.... :/