Zimmerman

[n2sooners]

You think GZ stopped screaming for help because the gun was so loud?

It was TM screaming for help because a man was pointing a gun at him.
A bullet to the heart stopped that screaming for help.

He was screaming for help while on top of Zimmerman? How exactly did Zimmerman point the gun at Martin while Martin was on top of him beating his face? I don't know who was screaming for help and I don't think it matters. Physical and eyewitness evidence puts Martin on top of Zimmerman going mma style on Zimmerman's face when the shooting took place. Who is screaming is a distraction that was only brought up so much because it was the only thing the prosecution had to try and get a conviction based on sympathy.

 

[Hobbes]

He was screaming for help while on top of Zimmerman? How exactly did Zimmerman point the gun at Martin while Martin was on top of him beating his face? I don't know who was screaming for help and I don't think it matters. Physical and eyewitness evidence puts Martin on top of Zimmerman going mma style on Zimmerman's face when the shooting took place. Who is screaming is a distraction that was only brought up so much because it was the only thing the prosecution had to try and get a conviction based on sympathy.

"Who is screaming" for help is a "distraction".

That's an interesting way to look at it.

 

[n2sooners]

If stand your ground laws imply that you do not have an obligation to retreat from a threat, how is that not applicable to Martin? That's the major problem with this case. If someone is following you, you believe then intend you harm, stand your ground laws say you don't have to retreat.

This case will be detrimental to conceal and carry rights, because the grounds that Zimmermans case is built entirely around the fact that only he was eligible to defend himself. Zimmerman only had to defend himself, because he created a situation in which he was a perceived threat to another person. If he was a threat to Martin, then Martin should also have the right to defend himself, and under stand your ground laws, does not have a legal obligation to retreat. Stand your ground laws, while mainly intended for gun owners, applies to any scenario in which you meet a threat with physical force rather then meeting a threat with retreat.

Except Martin was out of sight and in order to get to where the fight took place he must have advanced his position, and that isn't standing your ground. Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and talked to the operator a few minutes afterwards. The place where the fight took place was in the open and if Martin had been standing his ground there Zimmerman would have easily been able to see him.

And there is no evidence that Zimmerman created the situation. He claims Martin jumped him which means Martin may have created the situation. Blaming Zimmerman for being there and having to defend himself if he didn't start the fight would be like blaming the girl walking to her car late at night in a short skirt for getting raped.

 

[n2sooners]

"Who is screaming" for help is a "distraction".

That's an interesting way to look at it.

Yes it is because screaming for help while you beat the **** out of someone doesn't take away their right to defend themselves.

 

[Quick_Draw_McGraw]

Blaming Zimmerman for being there and having to defend himself if he didn't start the fight would be like blaming the girl walking to her car late at night in a short skirt for getting raped.

It would be more like blaming the girl, who decided that she saw someone that she thought was dangerous, and then starts chasing him down a dark alley.

That being said you do raise a good point about the duration of time.

 

[Hobbes]

Yes it is because screaming for help while you beat the **** out of someone doesn't take away their right to defend themselves.

If I was beating the F°°° out of someone I wouldn't be screaming for help, now would I?
Do you have anything that isn't just a repeat of the defense version of the encounter?

 

[LightningCrash]

Yes it is because screaming for help while you beat the **** out of someone doesn't take away their right to defend themselves.

maybe it will, and we will have a rash of assaults where attackers scream for help the whole time. +5 to plausible deniability.

 

[Glocktogo]

OK...Say TM was a thug. Say he had his history with the law. Say that he regularly smoked weed.
None of these are the reasons that GZ decided to stop TM that night...there's no way he could have known any of that prior. You and I and everyone else knows GZ went after him because he didn't look like he belonged there. Fine, he looked suspicious. Call the law and let them do their job. Since when does a neighborhood watch have the authority to question or detain? And he was told by 911 dispatch not to pursue...but he chose to do it anyway. TM was not doing anything illegal when GZ decided to pursue him...I have a big problem with that.

I do not doubt that GZ feared for his life, but he never should have been in the situation in the first place. There was an altercation - GZ felt threatened enough to draw his firearm - TM was shot and killed. GZ was in a fight for his life, but was he the one to instigate the fight to begin with? Or did TM turn and charge him? That changes things. Again, only 2 know the truth...one can't talk and the other ain't gonna talk.

This trial is a mess. Just like Jody Arias, Kaylee Anthony, Martha Stewart, Scott Pederson, O.J.....and the list goes on and on. Remember when trails happened and we read about the verdict in the paper? Now every cable news channel has a camera in the courtroom and are broadcasting live. There's no way this verdict comes down without backlash...either way the outcome is going to cause a flare up and we'll start this whole argument over again.

There is this little thing called the law of probability. What we have here is a gated community that is bordered by a low income, high crime area that happens to be predominantly black. It could be white, Hispanic or Asian, it really wouldn't matter. Low income, high crime is the prevailing factor here.

The gated community had a watch program. Their goal was to reduce predatory crime in their gated community, as is their right to do. Their gated community happened to lie between the low income, high crime area and a place or places where those low income, high crime area residents liked to go. So they use it as a shortcut, which would technically be trespassing.

Now it stands to reason that if most of the crime perpetrators, AND the people using the gated community as a public thoroughfare are coming from the predominantly black neighborhood, well, what race do you think the neighborhood watch volunteers are going to encounter?

I've seen this before in policing. An officer gets investigated for civil rights violations and discrimination because 98% of their arrests are on blacks. Well duh! When his patrol beat encompasses an area where 98% of the residents are black, what race would you expect 98% of his arrests to be on???

As for the bolded part above, asked and answered. That was a flawed bit of logic, which happens to be exactly what most of the prosecution's case was made of. Flawed logic.

FWIW, I think Zimmerman is an idiot that made us all (CCW'ers) look bad. Being an ******* and doing something foolish isn't a crime though.

Here is the tape of the final confrontation, screaming for help, and the gunshot.



The defense claims it is GZ screaming for help and the prosecution claims it is TM.

Listen and you will find that the screaming ceases at the instant of the gunshot.
If it was TM that is easy to explain because he was shot in the heart.
If it was GZ screaming why did he stop screaming for help at the sound of the gunshot?

This is probably some of the dumbest "logic" I've ever read. Did you think before you typed that? Seriously?

Have you ever tried to shoot and talk at the same time? You have to consciously tell yourself to do it in order to make it work. The noise of a gunshot is a primordial trigger. Most people don't flinch when firing a gun because of the recoil, it's the loud noise. Ever seen someone drop a dish and have it shatter in a crowded restaurant? What happens? Yep, dead silence. All conversation stops for a brief moment.

When it comes to stuff like this, you have to stop trying to over-analyze the event with a higher order thought process. When it happened there on the grass, no high order brain functions were in force. It was all reptilian, hind brain in a struggle for survival. Regardless of which one was actually screaming, the screaming would logically stop at the shot because the fight was over. Any "help" was overdue and no longer necessary at that point.

 

[Glocktogo]

If I was beating the F°°° out of someone I wouldn't be screaming for help, now would I?
Do you have anything that isn't just a repeat of the defense version of the encounter?

So you're saying that the facial and cranial lacerations were on Martin and not Zimmerman, and that Zimmerman was beating the F°°° out of Martin right before he shot him?

You just shot your own horse there dude.

 

[n2sooners]

If I was beating the F°°° out of someone I wouldn't be screaming for help, now would I?
Do you have anything that isn't just a repeat of the defense version of the encounter?

Well, there is the damage to Zimmerman's face and head, the grass on his clothes, the eyewitness testimony, and the testimony of the most credible medical expert. But if you throw all that out, I, much like you, just have speculation left.