At what age do you shoot spikes?

[dennishoddy]

Hard to take Dr. James Kroll seriously after reading that - what does he say about deer farms then? impossible? I can see how malnutrition can stunt the growth - but if you ain't got it, you ain't got it.

You have to be kidding me. Deer in "farms" have the absolute greatest nutrition, hence grow the biggest antlers. Protein at the corrrect time is the key to antler growth.

Ironically the conclusion is that a fully grown spike will be AVERAGE AT BEST among the rest deer OF ALL AGES!

On our land most of the deer management is done by truckers - I usually loose 3:1 on our mile during rut. I see 30+ deer every time I go out, most of them bucks. I see 7-8 fully grown bucks and 7-8 forkers. I feel very bad if I shoot a button instead of a doe. As I said - I generally don't take an "average" buck. But I really don't see why I should spare a spike in my situation. Deer in farm country is a nuisance - next thing you know, the neighbors get an extermination permit cause "there is too many ugly ones eating all the good stuff"
there is no such thing as an "extermination permit

You really need to check out facts before posting something like this.

 

[RidgeHunter]

Hard to take Dr. James Kroll seriously after reading that - what does he say about deer farms then? impossible? I can see how malnutrition can stunt the growth - but if you ain't got it, you ain't got it.

A "deer ranch" is different from a free ranging herd. If you read more of what he says without the bias, you'd see that is the point he makes (and supports with study data). Genetics are the least important factor in improving the number of "big" bucks in a free ranging herd. Allowing them to mature is more important.

Ironically the conclusion is that a fully grown spike will be AVERAGE AT BEST among the rest deer OF ALL AGES!

Again, reading comprehension is key. Not deer of "ALL AGES!" , deer of all ages KILLED. See the difference?

The study showed that spikes had roughly the same size antlers as multi-point yearlings when they matured. It doesn't get much more clear than that. Using your logic, you should "cull" forkies too. There is no difference in a spike yearling and a forky yearling.

I'm done with this thread, I've got nothing more to add. I could care less what someone else shoots as long as it's legal (I'm proud of all my deer, and they are no world beaters), I just think "culling spikes" is a load of misinformation I hate to see spread around. Shoot spikes if you WANT to, not because it makes you have bigger bucks. Because It doesn't. It makes you have fewer bucks reach maturity.

 

[MoBoost]

I believe it's called NWCO permit ... never really looked into it.

 

[AllOut]

what dennis and ridgehunter said

Dennis... Ya a lot of kansas guys come down here. But the main reason is that they only have a one buck limit and there muzzleloader starts in september. Most those guys hammer a monster on summer feeding patterns before our season even starts. Its funny though cause kansas guys grip saying out of staters are ruining kansas every since they changed the nonres drawin worse than the grant county guys do about out of towners.

 

[AllOut]

I believe it's called NWCO permit ... never really looked into it.

deer are NOT on the list of species eligible for NWCO... Like stated above, look into something before posting about it.

 

[MoBoost]

... how about DCAP or DEPR permit? I might've wrongfully thought that they fall under NWCO.

I'm sorry I don't own a farm or have damaging deer population, and don't know the intricacies of the due process and right acronyms; but I do have family that farms, and such methods were mentioned on several occasions.

Looks like I ended up on unpopular side of discussion, everything I say will be discredited or ignored; and usually ends up with personal attacks, therefore I give-up

However, after reading Dr. Kroll's studies, even though I do find them inconclusive (12% sample rate for one), I'm reconsidering my spike philosophy based on Texas study.

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/general/news/story?page=c_fea_QDMA_spikes_management_Thomas

 

[RidgeHunter]

Looks like I ended up on unpopular side of discussion, everything I say will be discredited or ignored; and usually ends up with personal attacks, therefore I give-up

That's priceless

Quit whining. Not a single person even came close to personally attacking you. At least until I said "quit whining", if that counts. And nobody would have. In fact, I even said I have no problem with someone shooting WHATEVER LEGAL DEER THEY WANT several times. I just have a problem with them "fancy-ing it up" with a name that implies it's super beneficial to the herd. It's not "culling"...it's killing. Killing young bucks. That's all it is, nothing more.

And it was you that was stand-offish about new information and ideas, picking apart anything posted and attacking the source (Dr.) for saying things he never said.

everything I say will be discredited or ignored

What...like this?

Hard to take Dr. James Kroll seriously after reading that - what does he say about deer farms then? impossible? I can see how malnutrition can stunt the growth - but if you ain't got it, you ain't got it.

Ironically the conclusion is that a fully grown spike will be AVERAGE AT BEST among the rest deer OF ALL AGES!

(BTW there is much more info on this if you look for it, not just that study. I see you've found some.)

Don't take things so seriously. Nobody is mad at you because they disagree.

 

[Buzzgun]

MoBoost

You need to attend a Nobel Foundation http://www.noble.org/ deer management seminar and your eyes will be opened to all the misconceptions you have about deer management. They will show you photographic proof that culling spikes is not only ineffective, but a really BAD idea.

Deer farms can and do control genetics through selective breeding, that doesn't happen in a free ranging herd. Remember, every buck gets half of its genes from the doe, so, which does do you cull to get bigger antlers?? Deer farms can look at both doe and buck genetics and breed does from big antler genetics to bucks with big antler genetics, even then it doesn't always result in big antlers.

 

[MoBoost]

MoBoost
You need to attend a Nobel Foundation http://www.noble.org/ deer management seminar and your eyes will be opened to all the misconceptions you have about deer management. They will show you photographic proof that culling spikes is not only ineffective, but a really BAD idea.

I assume you attended the seminar and obviously see mistakes in my ways. Did you skip quality management class? (Matt 7:3)

Genetics is the most difficult aspect of trophy buck management to effectively manipulate because the genetic potential of deer is very difficult to identify. Each deer has a different genetic potential for antler growth. If bucks with inferior antlers can be identified, they should be culled in some situations so they do not compete for food and breeding with more desirable bucks.

Source: www.noble.org

Obviously if you are trying to maintain numbers - taking any bucks over does is bad. It is not the case on our land. As said before - I will cull a spike over taking an average buck - with average buck it's very hard to tell if it is an aged "spike" or immature "trophy".

What...like this?

See, see - it's happening already !!!

 

[AllOut]

If bucks with inferior antlers can be identified, they should be culled in some situations so they do not compete for food and breeding with more desirable bucks.

Not all and only after they reach maturity... thats what this whole thing is about, that u cant tell if a buck is inferior til he is mature not as a 2.5 year spike.