Gun Show Situation, we need a ruling

[v2a]

I think it was a good idea not to sell. I just had a guy from New York try and have me ship 30 round ar-15 mags to him. I told him no. Seemed like it was a trap.

 

[kevin brown]

What I know from my post earlier the Seller had bought a handgun at one of the shows and resold it same day the person who bought the gun then later pawned it and lost it the pawn shop then did there job and it came back stolen and then the trail came back to the private seller then they watched him at shows buying and selling at the shows then shut him down.

 

[dieseltech09]

I dont see how its a straw purchase. Even if you are only buying something because you know you can flip it for a profit its not like are buying it with someone else's money because they can't. And since a private seller isn't required to do a background check a person who couldn't buy one from an FFL could just lie about it if the private seller even asked.

 

[Buzzgun]

If the deal seemed hinky, you made the right call, however, buying a firearm with the intent to resell it is not a straw purchase according to the legal definition, and it is NOT illegal to purchase a firearm with intent to resell it.

The 4473 says:

"11a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.) "

Instructions for 11a:

"Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANS- FEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), (n), or (x). Please note: EXCEPTION: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b."

If you purchase a firearm, using your own funds, with the intent to resell it, you are, in fact, the actual buyer, so no straw purchase occurs.


From the original post: "One of my private sellers came up and asked my opinion about a sale. He had five long guns on his table, one of them was an AR15. A woman approached him and offered to buy all of his guns for $5000, then continued to say that she new some people that she could sell them to and make some money. With the intention getting the AR15 free and clear."

How is what she intended to do any different than what your "private seller" was already doing?? Unless your "private seller" was actually selling a "personally owned collection", and not selling firearms that he had actually purchased with intent to resell, her intent was to do the same thing that the original seller was doing!!

Notice, according to the original post, the woman never said she wanted to buy the guns on behalf of "some people", she never suggested she was buying for someone else, she simply stated she knew some people she could sell the guns to. Unless she was buying on behalf of someone else, generally because those people can't legally purchase or possess a firearm, then it was NOT a straw purchase.


At worst, she would have been guilty of dealing without a license, and even that is a stretch unless she does it on a regular basis!

18 USC Sec. 921 01/03/2012 (112-90)

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS

-HEAD-
Sec. 921. Definitions

(11) The term "dealer" means (A) any person engaged in the
business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person
engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or
fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms,
or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term "licensed dealer"
means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this
chapter.

21) The term "engaged in the business" means -
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section
921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to
dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with
the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the
repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall
not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or
purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal
collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his
personal collection of firearms;

(22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and
profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of
firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary
gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating
a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit
shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and
repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal
purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term
"terrorism" means activity, directed against United States persons,
which -

Another question, since it was a private seller and not an FFL, is a "straw purchase" even illegal?? The law says a private seller cannot knowingly sell to a person prohibited from buying a firearm.

From the BATF FAQ:

Unlicensed persons:

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

A person who can legally purchase and possess a firearm is NOT a prohibited person.

 

[berettaman]

Untill everyone gets over this current hysteria,no matter what the law is or will be you gave the morally correct advice.

 

[harley128]

Dave. Your advice is sound as far as I'm concerned.

 

[BadgeBunny]

Regardless of whether it was a straw purchase by the letter of the law or not, better safe than sorry, I say. Under the circumstances, and in this political climate, I'd say you did good.

 

[53convert]

read all the threads and all I can say, if you felt it was a rat than it probably was.
Nothing says you gotta sell anything to any body just because they want it.

If it dont feel right than it just dont feel right.

You did good regardless of weither it was a straw man or not. Why take the chance. This is NOT a good time to be pushing that particular envelope

 

[NikatKimber]

This weekend at the Norman Gun show we had a strange situation that threw up a red flag. One of my private sellers came up and asked my opinion about a sale. He had five long guns on his table, one of them was an AR15. A woman approached him and offered to buy all of his guns for $5000, then continued to say that she new some people that she could sell them to and make some money. With the intention getting the AR15 free and clear.

I told him that in my opinion it was still a "straw purchase" since she stated that she was not buying them for herself. We consulted with another FFL dealer, who is also a LEO and he agreed with me. We both told him that we believe that the ATF is probably putting out an extraordinary effort right now to nail people selling guns at gun shows right now and he should probably walk away from the deal. He did.

I do remember that when the woman came in the door and paid, my immediate reaction was that she was a cop. Cuz cops talk funny, you know what I mean. That was just my initial impression.

I believe that if the woman in question had just walked up and offered to buy the firearms there would have not been any problem. But, as soon as she volunteered the information about reselling them the situation became sketchy.

I did make an announcement over the public address system telling all the dealers to be extra careful about "straw purchases" and she left right after that.

Did I give out the incorrect advice?

By the way, we did find one guy coming in with the glasses containing a hidden camera.

I don't think it "became sketchy," then, I think it became straight up wrong - according to the law.

Just not a straw purchase - as a non FFL firearms dealer.

 

[JD8]

I think it became straight up wrong - according to the law.

Just not a straw purchase - as a non FFL firearms dealer.

Does anyone have any reference for this? Again, I'm just curious.... because we have members bragging about going to Academy, buying ARs and selling them for $2500 at the gunshow for example.