High end AR’s, diminishing returns, and reliability.

[JD8]

Sabre is $1200, and aside from an optic/light/sling/can, I don't think I would add anything. If I did change anything, I would maybe put a pinned/dimple adjustable gas block on (if horribly overgassed) and a different trigger, I would be out of another $300ish. But, nice parts and specs aside, its still a PSA.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-sabre-forged-14-5-5-56-fn-chf-cl-13-5-geissele-mk14-pin-weld-rifle-with-silenceroco-asr-and-magpul-sl-s-furniture.html

SOLGW is much higher at $1800. Like the Sabre I don't think I would change anything. has a lot of the same parts/features of the Sabre. It does not have a pinned gas block. 3-4 years ago it was all good reviews, the owner was sending out a lot of free ammo and guns to people for testing. More recent stuff seems to have a pattern of mediocre reviews, with a few bads. Owner's overall treatment of people seems to be lacking from what I have seen though. Its weird, you look at threads on other forums and lots of people say they have an issue, he shows up on forum, posts "I'll take care of it", and next thing you know said people sing his praises and talk about how wonderful everything is. It almost feels rehearsed. He's also assaulted some police officers and threatened to kill a few. Also rumors of questionable dealings with police departments and him selling his firearms to them. Great warranty though.

Home

DetailsThe Sons of Liberty Gun Works M4-89 14.5" carbine in 5.56 NATO is SOLGW's premier fighting rifle. The M4-89 is built from the ground up with sought after upgrades, such as an A5 buffer system, ambidextrous short throw safety selector, and Liberty Fighting Trigger. With a pinned NOX flash...

www.primaryarms.com

SOLGW M489 - Sons Of Liberty Gun Works

sonsoflibertygw.com

Honestly, this article reads like a smear/slam piece, but I keep finding the same info all over the place, just worded nicer or sanitized for the readers. Threats, violence, questionable dealings, and as of feb 2019 4 arrests on suspicion of DWI? That's quite the laundry list, and I don't know how I feel about condoning such things through my patronage. Agencies buying from local riflemaker say they were unaware of owner’s history of threats, violence against SAPD officers

I got the models mixed up with the LMT's. Was looking at the FN Guardian, and the LMT Mars. the Mars is double my budget, so not gonna happen for a while. The FN is appealling, but I want this to be a suppressor host and a easily transportable setup, want to cut the barrel down to about 14", pin and weld to sit right at 16.1", and then I would have to swap out handguards, prob get that same Geissle mk14 thats on the sabre, was looking at it a while back. At the end of the day the FN would be somewhere near $1500 as well.

FN 15 Guardian® | FN® Firearms

The FN 15 Guardian applies the FN battle-proven blueprint to a brand new rifle, making FN quality accessible to all home defenders and sport shooters. Proven to perform on any front, this new carbine has the critical upgrades for tack-driving accuracy, with a nitrided 16-inch CMV steel...

fnamerica.com

Worth a watch.....

 

[Camo]

True, which is one of the reasons why I am hesitant to pay such a premium for a BCM or a SOLGW. $500 more and I could get something actually built by a company who actually makes their own stuff, like LMT. Funny, PSA actually manufactures an awful lot of their stuff, and seems to do a pretty good job of buying quality components from the same guys everybody else does. But their QC strategy seems to be "check some of it, if the buyer shoots it and has problems, we'll fix it". Kindof a retroactive/hindsight QC process. But, All that being said, I haven't had an issue with anything from them, and if all the bones are good, then why could they be stellar rifles with a little massaging from me or a gunsmith?

Agreed, most times your just buying a name. I’ve had a few “high end” ar15s and none of them were worth the extra money,

 

[ClintC]

My opion is if you are going to make any major parts changes. build the darn thing. Im would help you build, im sure a lot of other people on there would as well. Im not saying we are going to do it for you as some will not want the liability. But im sure you could come over and use the tools and ask questions. Higher end AR's get better barrel, uppers, lowers, BCG's. excreta. These parts have a tolerance less then mil spec. IF you want to just buy I would go for White Oak, Willison Combat, or JP Enterprise. These manufactures along with some other will have your best quality rifles. If you want mil spec and the rifle to just work run to Bass Pro, Cabela's or Academy and buy off the shelf. High end is what your wallet can afford. High end for me is probably not high end to you or visa versa. Like i said in one of my post on here. I have over 3K in my just built rifle and I don't even have a optic on it yet.

Just my 2 cents

 

[JEVapa]

I’ve had a few “high end” ar15s and none of them were worth the extra money,

"High end" is relative. Just because it costs a lot, doesn't mean it's high end, it just means it costs a lot. High-ish end doesn't mean spendy either.
However, real high-end guns will outshoot most junk and cheap out there including a bunch of the "high end" posited here. Real high-end guns do tend to cost more, it is what it is, and have always been and always will be worth the money.

Most people will never see the difference because they don't work it to the point that "high-end" matters. High-end gets poopooed and cheap is good enough, because most people will never go beyond what cheap provides. A few rounds at the range occasionally and staged photos of never-ending improvements on OSA.


WRT forgings, just because the forgings are all relatively the same, doesn't mean the guns are the same. It's the machinists and final finishing that makes a good receiver. You can talk sh*t all day on Poverty Pony, but they make really good uppers and lowers - they've figured it out...good parts kits and gas blocks too, but that's about it IMO.
Same with PSA...took them a long time but they make really good stuff now. There was a point in time not too long ago that PSA was associated with a garbage truck, so...
People dump on DPMS, but they started as an OEM parts supplier to the USG...their sh*t never breaks unless you're making it better or something.


Like @ClintC said, if you're gonna add stuff and tinker and spend money making it better all the time, then you should go ahead and build one with "high-end" parts - good receivers, BCG, barrel, etc and take your time to build the frankengun of your dreams.

If you're not gonna make it better all the time, then buy a "high-end" gun based on your budget and what you save up for.

Or a Hybrid - say a LaRue URG on a PSA or Colt lower or something like that. Hybrid ghetto guns are always really good especially when you get a factory URG. I have several of these and they all run like raped apes.

Or build a name brand out of their parts...you can do this with a lot of companies - WC, LaRue, LMT, etc.
Example: During holiday sales, you can build a kickass WC for under $1000 that is as good or better than their guns they sell.

My #Hana thing I look for with a "high-end" gun company is that it has or has had USG contracts. If they have or have had USG contracts for weapons, then you can be guaranteed that it'll run for at least 10000 rounds before it needs any new parts and will most likely run for many more if rebuilt right.

If they don't have any USG contracts, then I look for other mitigating factors like USG procurement competitions and how they fared, shooting competitors, Federal and LEO, personal experience, etc.

 

[Camo]

I stand behind my statement. I don’t pay for a name since performance is equal.

 

[El Pablo]

@KurtM How many AR barrels do you go through in a year these days?

 

[KurtM]

I'm usually going through 2, but it will go up this year as IPSC world championships are coming up next year and a fellow got to give that it's due respect! I've already cooked one out and into the next by 7000 rounds or so. I usually yank them when they pass 2 M.O.A. with good ammo.

 

[JD8]

I stand behind my statement. I don’t pay for a name since performance is equal.

Without any "names" or specifics, it's pretty hard to quantify the significance of your stance.

 

[KurtM]

I think that this statement is true on many levels. The quality of an AR is in the machining, not the forging or casting. There are only a few Foundries that make ALL the basic AR components. All these companies buy their components from them. For instance Alcoa and Colt's were closely aligned the early days, but Alcoa upper and lower raw forging were sold to Olympic, the fledgling DPMS, and Bushmaster. People would say Colt is so much better, they use better material in their upper/lower than these other guys! Same parts! You would be very surprised at the amount of parts almost all AR manufacturers use that are sourced from just 3-4 large manufacturers. I know everyone throws around Mil. Spec. as if it is the holy grail, but it isn't all that great. All it says is we magnetic particle inspected the parts for cracks and spot tested hardness on a select few parts, and the dimensions fall in the specified range. Yes, it's good stuff to test, but it doesn't prevent bad parts from occuring. I.E. Colts had a bad batch of extensions and they liked to shear off the locking lugs. They were WAY to brittle from heat treating gone wrong, but each and everyone met the hardness test by "Mill Spec" . One Larger builder who MPIed all their bolts which they got from Martin, a government" mil spec" contractor had a bunch of bolt failures do the a bad batch of steel that somehow passed inspection.... Twice! So don't buy a name just because.

 

[Camo]

Without any "names" or specifics, it's pretty hard to quantify the significance of your stance.

We have all seen the charts that put them in order. I always laugh since the forging and often machining are from the same place. I find it funny. But to quantify, the H&k, daniels defense, colt, cmmg all shot the same group the psa, and Anderson did. I would even add NOVESKE to that statement.