Is Your Gun a Weapon or a Talisman?

[Michael Brown]

Good Question.. and I had to get that out before I disagreed with one thing or another..

I'm of the opinion that determined willingness, (often called mindset) .. is critical to self defense....and necessary for even 'good' training to form good habits.

I'm moreso convinced that training sincerely (time & money invested, experienced instructors, LISTEN to feedback and adapt).. is VERY important to success in self defense.. but *second* in that *first* you have to make up your mind you're WILLING to do that Defend part.

most gun owners ( gun enthusiasts is more correct) have forgotten some things about HOW they decided to be responsible for their own self defense. .

if you've been a lifelong gun owner, you may never have actually decided to be responsible, it sort of grew up when you did.

many folks think of guns as talismans, nice word by the way.. and by MY standards, that beats nothing.. both to have a gun (with minimal foundation of training) and for the example it sets (for others lacking skills)...

yes, the training is critical. no, it isn't strictly required to WIN.. too many untrained folks have won, to prove that point in error.

what might not be evident is that CRIMINALS may be untrained.. they don't have to take tests.. there are certainly plenty of stupid ones, yes?

Yes, training is necessary. Yes, having a gun beats having a talisman.

That's *not* a reason to avoid gun ownership as long as you don't mistake ownership for skill.

There have been one heck of a lot of homicides committed by the untrained. . and SOME of those homicides were self defense, entirely legal and honorable.

Part of the reasons that gungrabbers get excited is how LITTLE training guns take, to be operated correctly.

Considering they've rejected personal responsibility for self defense and civic duty for defense of their family and neighborhood, it rubs their noses in it that they *could* confront the problem themselves if they only WOULD..

ANY level of training is a step in the right direction. A *badly* trained person who gets themself shot trying.. is more valuable to ME, the innocent bystander.. than an apathetic drone who doesn't care. .

I do NOT suggest anyone ignore training requirements, but I won't call them the big half. The big half is WILLING.. and we can work with that. It ain't very difficult once they're willing...

I wish I could agree as it would make the formula simpler.

However what we are talking about is increasing odds; no more, no less.

We are far past the "willing" point in this discussion, though I whole-heartedly concede that it is prerequisite.

IF willingness was indeed enough and it was easy from there, we would see much better performance in law enforcement shootings.

Thus I whole-heartedly disagree that it's not very hard once they're willing.

I've seen too many examples to believe otherwise.

We should not mistake good fortune for competence and rely on it for our safety.

YMMV.

Michael Brown

 

[mitchshrader]

we aren't on the same page..

but it's the same book.

my point is.. when dealing with novices you can't presume willing.

YOU MAY presume willing.. as in, you DO that..

well.. i don't.

there are folks who take the classes, who won't pull the trigger in a real incident. they may even THINK they're trained...

i think that's a topic of a recent thread, hesitating in a real confrontation..

and we Are in the same book here, i don't want to seem to argue when i have no disagreement with your position.

but i notice a default presumption that willingness and committment exist. they don't always.

how many instructors actually turn down students?

How many OUGHT to turn down (some) students?

nope. when you get to the point of presumption, it's just another vacuum cleaner sales pitch.

no thanks, i ain't partaking of any today, might try my neighbor. i'm sure it's a very nice vacuum cleaner but your self interest is showing..

and it goes right along with CCW ain't a defense of the 2nd amendment.

it's permission from strangers to do things that make sense to start with, and they make JUST as much sense to do em without the paperwork.

An untrained citizen beats nothing, they MIGHT win.

A Whole bunch of people bet worse odds daily, keeping the lights turned on in Vegas.

If gun trainers would go listen to insurance salesmen sales pitches and delete all the stuff that sounded like that.. they'd be better off for it. IMO.

edit/ps. I am really not trying to be a jerk. That's a danger signal that I'm closer than I wanna be to it. My apologies in that direction, it's consequential to disagreement and not my goal.

I know almost nothing, and that's being generous, of the business of being a trainer. My opinions are specifically focused on novices, those of recent and untested interest, poorly budgeted and lacking foundation to build on. If somebody WANTS a trainer, researches and studies different styles and reputations, picks with their eyes open.. i've not a word to say to em, they already know more than I do. I may ask them questions to save steps, pick their brains if they'll stand for it.. but i'm not going to TEACH them anything.

Now someone who may have a recent and questionable conversion from 'no-gun' to 'owns/wants/needs' a gun.. I may have opinions and insights that can be helpful. i might JUST teach them something and save them some steps.

i'm not arguing with you just to piss you off.

 

[strangersinspace]

This is a very interesting thread... I have had guns of one sort or another since I was a kid. I now have a wife and a newborn child and a home to protect, so I've taken an interest in learning how to defend my family. I've used my guns just enough to know deep down, if I ever had to use them in a way such that my life depended on it, I may not survive. In other words, I know enough about using guns, to know that I need to know a lot more....

What recommendations can you offer for someone like myself? How does one train for a real self-defense gunfight? I know that you can mentally plan and such, but what is some practical real world advise?

 

[Michael Brown]

This is a very interesting thread... I have had guns of one sort or another since I was a kid. I now have a wife and a newborn child and a home to protect, so I've taken an interest in learning how to defend my family. I've used my guns just enough to know deep down, if I ever had to use them in a way such that my life depended on it, I may not survive. In other words, I know enough about using guns, to know that I need to know a lot more....

What recommendations can you offer for someone like myself? How does one train for a real self-defense gunfight? I know that you can mentally plan and such, but what is some practical real world advise?

My first suggestion would be to read all the stickies in the training and CCW sub-forums. There is ton of information there.

That should get you started.

From there you should have much more specific questions.

Good luck.

Michael Brown

 

[458 SOCOM]

I am afraid after reading your wonderful article, that my weapon is a talisman. However, I can change and I will. I am going to start taking my self defense a little more seriously. More trips to the range, and also add some training from reputable schools.

I bet you wouldn't know of any, huh?

 

[J.P.]

I am afraid after reading your wonderful article, that my weapon is a talisman. However, I can change and I will. I am going to start taking my self defense a little more seriously. More trips to the range, and also add some training from reputable schools.

I bet you wouldn't know of any, huh?

TDSA and USSA both come to mind and both are OSA sponsors.

Realizing that you are not as capable as you think you are is a great step in the right direction!
(I'm not sure if that came out right, but I think you get the drift)

Puching paper doesn't teach you as much as fighting against a resisting opponent.
Another excellent website from which to research self defense concepts is: TPI
You will do far more reading on these subjects on this particular page than you can possibly imagine, and it is an excellent resource with information from some top-notch instructors.
(instuctors by the way which some of OSA's own resident instructors train with)

 

[360]

TDSA and USSA both come to mind and both are OSA sponsors.

Realizing that you are not as capable as you think you are is a great step in the right direction!
(I'm not sure if that came out right, but I think you get the drift)

Puching paper doesn't teach you as much as fighting against a resisting opponent.
Another excellent website from which to research self defense concepts is: TPI
You will do far more reading on these subjects on this particular page than you can possibly imagine, and it is an excellent resource with information from some top-notch instructors.
(instuctors by the way which some of OSA's own resident instructors train with)

This is the message I got when trying to register : "Sorry, registration has been disabled by the administrator."

 

[Michael Brown]

This is the message I got when trying to register : "Sorry, registration has been disabled by the administrator."

This is because it is a closed membership. You have to be approved first. It just takes a day or two to make certain you're not a currently banned member or a known problem child.

Michael Brown

 

[MercFE]

This is because it is a closed membership. You have to be approved first. It just takes a day or two to make certain you're not a currently banned member or a known problem child.

Michael Brown

Would be interested in reading some of the posts there... How does one go about being "approved?"

 

[J.P.]

Yes, I forgot to mention that you have to register first.
The registration process takes a while but it's worth it.

They do this to weed out problem members and are not very tolerant of inane ******** over there at all.