That's why I said "arguably". It's open to interpretation. The point is, why risk it? Stack the deck in your favor as far as training, equipment AND the law. Anything else is foolish.
I've got my permission slip and she is an adult with a mind of her own. She's been a shooter since before she can remember. The intent of my post was to compare the risks of carrying as a permit holder versus not holding a permit.
Even if Unlawful carry is a misdemeanor instead of a felony... you might ask your sister if it would be worth her risking doing 30 days or up to a year in the county jail for Unlawful Carry of a firearm.... just to save $85 for a 5 yr license or $170 for a 10 yr license? That figures out to be only $17 a yr. Depending on the jurisdiction her violation occurs in.. she might get a Asst DA trying to make a reputation for being tough on crime. A bondsman, court / attorney fees, loss of income & her personal freedom could be much more expensive.
I fully understand not wanting to ask permission, be fingerprinted and photographed, and entered into a gov't database just to engage in something every individual has an inalienable right to do.
I believe a person should be able to ask a question like this and get an honest answer as to the pros and the cons without people jumping all over him for daring to wonder whether somebody might <gasp> actually have legitimate reasons for breaking a law. Frankly I find the "obey at all costs" attitude toward the law, which is so prevalent in our society, to be repulsive. When you take away the facade of awe and majesty that the State expends so much effort maintaining, you can see that laws are nothing more than threats of force. The moral status of force depends on whether it is either used aggressively against someone without his consent, or in self defense (protecting someone's rights). Any time a threat of force is leveled at someone who isn't threatening anyone else's rights, I believe it is morally justified to resist it. Thankfully there were some guys back east in 1775 who thought that way, too. Now whether it is SMART, or in your rational self interest, to resist a particular law in a particular way is a very legitimate question.
Hopefully I can offer some insight on this particular issue, as a criminal defense attorney who is pretty familiar with the laws in this area. First off, it is a misdemeanor to break the prohibition on unlicensed carry. It carries a maximum penalty of a $100-250 fine and 0-30 days in County. I will tell you from practical experience that virtually nobody with a clean record does any time on this type of offense other than the initial ride downtown. You will get a 2 year deferred sentence max, and will have to pay a small fine, court costs, some probation fees, and your lawyer's fees (I would probably charge $1000 or less to handle a case like that), and when it is all over with, the case will be dismissed and expunged from the public record. It will cost you less than, say, a misdemeanor DUI. Altogether not a big deal as far as criminal charges go. In many states, a violation of the carry laws is a lot more serious (for example, it is a felony in Texas). Obviously there is no guarantee of what kind of deal you might get... and it will vary some by county... but that is how things generally go down in misdemeanor court in my experience.
There is also the issue of the low likelihood of getting caught for this offense. The easiest way to get caught would be on a traffic stop, or blatantly printing in public. As for the traffic stop, it is legal to transport a handgun open and unconcealed in the interior of the vehicle, so the most foolproof way is that if you see you are about to get pulled over, just to pull out the gun, unload it, and sit it on the passenger's seat or somewhere in plain view, which makes everything completely legal. Either that or just keep quiet about it, don't consent to any searches, and tell them "no" if they ask you if you have any weapons. If it is just a typical traffic stop, it is very unlikely that you will actually get searched without your consent.
As others have mentioned, unlawful carry may certainly have an impact on the availability of the "stand your ground" law. That is the biggest legal impact of unlawful carry IMO. To my knowledge this exact issue has never been tested; but I could easily see the Court of Criminal Appeals ruling that unlawful carry constituted unlawful conduct sufficient to deprive you of the SYG protection. It would certainly be possible for them to rule the other way, but I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig, with a murder conviction in the balance. You would still have the affirmative defense of self defense available, which requires that you be reasonably in fear of death or serious bodily harm to use deadly force. However, without SYG, the law would require that in order to be reasonably in such fear, you must retreat if possible before using deadly force. If you don't do so, you could be looking at a homicide conviction. There is still the "castle doctrine," which gives you a presumption of self defense and no retreat requirement in the case of an unlawful intruder in your home, business, or car; but that also contains an exception for a defendant who is engaged in unlawful activity. However, unlicensed possession of a loaded firearm in your own home would not be unlawful under that circumstances, so there would be no issue as far as a home defense scenario goes. spd is right that it really comes down to whether a DA wants to file charges in this kind of situation. Unlawful carry doesn't help your odds here at all. A license might just keep you from getting charges filed against you in the first place, which would save you a lot of trouble... believe me, I would charge a lot more than $1000 to defend somebody on murder charges, or to appeal the SYG/Castle Doctrine laws to the Court of Criminal Appeals!
Naturally if it comes down to living or dying, life is preferable even with the increased possibility of criminal prosecution; but even better is life with a lower chance of spending a lengthy term behind bars! I see it as a form of insurance that I am unfortunately forced into taking by the State and it's threats of force against me.
FYI Oklahoma honors all other state's permits (what is known as "full reciprocity"), so you don't actually have to even get an Oklahoma permit to be legal here. Some states have less onerous requirements on obtaining their permits. The best one I know of is Maine... you can get a non-resident permit from them all through the mail. It is only a $60 fee, there are no fingerprints required, and you will only wait 60-90 days to get it issued, instead of the 6+ months it will probably take to get an OK permit. For a "training requirement," they only require that you show proof of having some form of handgun safety training. There is a free online course from the State of Maryland that meets the requirements. The only downsides to a Maine permit is that not as many other states honor it, and it doesn't satisfy the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act (in the off chance you get stopped and searched by an ATF agent while in a school zone).
I hope this helps, and if you or your sister need any further advice, hit me up on PM or e-mail.
I believe a person should be able to ask a question like this and get an honest answer as to the pros and the cons without people jumping all over him for daring to wonder whether somebody might <gasp> actually have legitimate reasons for breaking a law. Frankly I find the "obey at all costs" attitude toward the law, which is so prevalent in our society, to be repulsive. When you take away the facade of awe and majesty that the State expends so much effort maintaining, you can see that laws are nothing more than threats of force. The moral status of force depends on whether it is either used aggressively against someone without his consent, or in self defense (protecting someone's rights). Any time a threat of force is leveled at someone who isn't threatening anyone else's rights, I believe it is morally justified to resist it. Thankfully there were some guys back east in 1775 who thought that way, too. Now whether it is SMART, or in your rational self interest, to resist a particular law in a particular way is a very legitimate question.
Hopefully I can offer some insight on this particular issue, as a criminal defense attorney who is pretty familiar with the laws in this area. First off, it is a misdemeanor to break the prohibition on unlicensed carry. It carries a maximum penalty of a $100-250 fine and 0-30 days in County. I will tell you from practical experience that virtually nobody with a clean record does any time on this type of offense other than the initial ride downtown. You will get a 2 year deferred sentence max, and will have to pay a small fine, court costs, some probation fees, and your lawyer's fees (I would probably charge $1000 or less to handle a case like that), and when it is all over with, the case will be dismissed and expunged from the public record. It will cost you less than, say, a misdemeanor DUI. Altogether not a big deal as far as criminal charges go. In many states, a violation of the carry laws is a lot more serious (for example, it is a felony in Texas). Obviously there is no guarantee of what kind of deal you might get... and it will vary some by county... but that is how things generally go down in misdemeanor court in my experience.
There is also the issue of the low likelihood of getting caught for this offense. The easiest way to get caught would be on a traffic stop, or blatantly printing in public. As for the traffic stop, it is legal to transport a handgun open and unconcealed in the interior of the vehicle, so the most foolproof way is that if you see you are about to get pulled over, just to pull out the gun, unload it, and sit it on the passenger's seat or somewhere in plain view, which makes everything completely legal. Either that or just keep quiet about it, don't consent to any searches, and tell them "no" if they ask you if you have any weapons. If it is just a typical traffic stop, it is very unlikely that you will actually get searched without your consent.
As others have mentioned, unlawful carry may certainly have an impact on the availability of the "stand your ground" law. That is the biggest legal impact of unlawful carry IMO. To my knowledge this exact issue has never been tested; but I could easily see the Court of Criminal Appeals ruling that unlawful carry constituted unlawful conduct sufficient to deprive you of the SYG protection. It would certainly be possible for them to rule the other way, but I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig, with a murder conviction in the balance. You would still have the affirmative defense of self defense available, which requires that you be reasonably in fear of death or serious bodily harm to use deadly force. However, without SYG, the law would require that in order to be reasonably in such fear, you must retreat if possible before using deadly force. If you don't do so, you could be looking at a homicide conviction. There is still the "castle doctrine," which gives you a presumption of self defense and no retreat requirement in the case of an unlawful intruder in your home, business, or car; but that also contains an exception for a defendant who is engaged in unlawful activity. However, unlicensed possession of a loaded firearm in your own home would not be unlawful under that circumstances, so there would be no issue as far as a home defense scenario goes. spd is right that it really comes down to whether a DA wants to file charges in this kind of situation. Unlawful carry doesn't help your odds here at all. A license might just keep you from getting charges filed against you in the first place, which would save you a lot of trouble... believe me, I would charge a lot more than $1000 to defend somebody on murder charges, or to appeal the SYG/Castle Doctrine laws to the Court of Criminal Appeals!
Naturally if it comes down to living or dying, life is preferable even with the increased possibility of criminal prosecution; but even better is life with a lower chance of spending a lengthy term behind bars! I see it as a form of insurance that I am unfortunately forced into taking by the State and it's threats of force against me.
FYI Oklahoma honors all other state's permits (what is known as "full reciprocity"), so you don't actually have to even get an Oklahoma permit to be legal here. Some states have less onerous requirements on obtaining their permits. The best one I know of is Maine... you can get a non-resident permit from them all through the mail. It is only a $60 fee, there are no fingerprints required, and you will only wait 60-90 days to get it issued, instead of the 6+ months it will probably take to get an OK permit. For a "training requirement," they only require that you show proof of having some form of handgun safety training. There is a free online course from the State of Maryland that meets the requirements. The only downsides to a Maine permit is that not as many other states honor it, and it doesn't satisfy the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act (in the off chance you get stopped and searched by an ATF agent while in a school zone).
I hope this helps, and if you or your sister need any further advice, hit me up on PM or e-mail.
As an attorney, are you really encouraging people to not only break the law, but lie to a police officer?? I don't agree with having to get a handgun license either, but I won't break the law just because I disagree with it.
He's just creating job security..hah
Yes, it is always best to submit and obey. Questioning government and civil disobedience is unpatriotic and something our Founding Fathers would have never done.
Well, hell then...let's all drive 90 mph thru a school zone with kids running everywhere firing our guns up in the air....as long as we're all in a civil disobedience mood. No need to submit and obey there, right?
Point taken. Defying laws and ordinances that erode the Second Amendment IS as crazy, harmful to the public and equal in seriousness as driving 90 mph through a school zone with kids running everywhere firing guns up in the air. I stand corrected.
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