Tulsa police chief against open-carry

[Werewolf]

Mr. Brown- Are there specific problems in open carry states which you can cite to demonstrate exactly how open carry is a problem?

Excellent and very appropriate question.

There are 30+ states in the US with some form or other of OC. At least 5 of them are essentially unrestricted OC. Somehow they get by with little or no problems. Yet there are those in OK who believe for some reason that OC would be a problem here.

Why?

Are we any less law abiding? Less responsible? Less capable? More threatening? Why would OC be a problem in OK yet it isn't in states like AZ, VA, VT, NH, MT etc.

What are those against giving law abiding citizens the choice to OC or not to OC afraid of?

WHAT?

Those Arizona bikers with the shotguns slung across their backs - are they actually committing crimes? I'm especially interested in them because the image is such a strong and fear-provoking one in the public's mind. Emotions overwhelming facts?

That's exactly the point. Evoke strong emotions. Ones that will drive the reader towards making an emotion based opinion instead of one based on fact.

Human beings are creatures of emotion and those that can invoke the proper ones can and do influence the behaviors of those within their reach. The most powerful of emotions most often used to influence people's decision making processes are fear and anger. We see it every day of our lives. Advertising is a prime example. Every ad you see or hear uses fear, humor or sex in its attempt to influence the choices of those exposed. Anger is a subtype of fear they are brothers in arms. How many political ads have you seen that try to make the viewer angry at an opponent, a political cause or position?

Pundits, politicians, lawyers, preachers...
You name 'em. They've got the technique down pat and use it freely to get exactly what they want.

And, as we've seen, they are not above using the technique to take away the choice of free citizens to open carry in Oklahoma.

 

[henschman]

Michael Brown,

Don't mistake my harsh criticism of someone's opinion for a belief that they have no right to express it.

By saying that I don't think people with such opinions should be allowed to keep their jobs, I am saying that if we had a mayor who was consistently pro-liberty, he would not appoint police chiefs with these types of beliefs. I fail to see the "delicious contradiction" to which you refer. There is nothing anti-libertarian about wanting to see public officials appointed who hold pro-liberty beliefs.

What "argument" are you saying has more flaws than Obamacare? The passage you quoted was not really an argument... just an agreement with an earlier post's expression of hope that people become less worried about the supposed threat posed by bikers, and my hope that people instead become more worried about the threat posed by those who believe that special rights/privileges should apply to police officers that do not apply to everyone else. Or do you disagree with my assertion that such "special privileges" exist? Open carry would be a prime example.

Just so I am clear on the rules you are setting for the forum, what vein of discussion are you referring to that I am not to continue in? Is there something about my previous post that is worse than the other posts that criticized the Chief's opinion, which I should refrain from doing in the future?

Thanks to everybody who agreed with my post. it's good to know you're out there.

 

[buckeye]

Everything about cops and bikers is an unvarnished, earnest opinion but really neither here nor there. (Although it does come across as rampant antagonism, honestly.)

The real question: what is sufficiently different about Oklahoma that just about 3/4 of the Union can handle open carry without mayhem, but we can not?

How is it that OC makes bad guys more difficult to detect or deal with? Surely the presence of a gun isn't the only criterion. In any case, it seems that in that line of thinking, concealed carry would be the bigger bugaboo - yet CC had widespread approval.

What bad guy, other than the most stupid, would prefer OC to CC, ever?

 

[Michael Brown]

Michael Brown,

Don't mistake my harsh criticism of someone's opinion for a belief that they have no right to express it.

By saying that I don't think people with such opinions should be allowed to keep their jobs, I am saying that if we had a mayor who was consistently pro-liberty, he would not appoint police chiefs with these types of beliefs. I fail to see the "delicious contradiction" to which you refer. There is nothing anti-libertarian about wanting to see public officials appointed who hold pro-liberty beliefs.

What "argument" are you saying has more flaws than Obamacare? The passage you quoted was not really an argument... just an agreement with an earlier post's expression of hope that people become less worried about the supposed threat posed by bikers, and my hope that people instead become more worried about the threat posed by those who believe that special rights/privileges should apply to police officers that do not apply to everyone else. Or do you disagree with my assertion that such "special privileges" exist? Open carry would be a prime example.

Just so I am clear on the rules you are setting for the forum, what vein of discussion are you referring to that I am not to continue in? Is there something about my previous post that is worse than the other posts that criticized the Chief's opinion, which I should refrain from doing in the future?

Thanks to everybody who agreed with my post. it's good to know you're out there.

In regards to the forum's rules, you may disagree with a police officer, official, political appointee, etc all you want as long as you do not offer the type of over-reaching generalizations and rampant disrespect that you did in your post.

If you wish to continue this discussion, you may do so via pm.

As far as the issue of "special privileges" to use your words goes, that is just what they are: PRIVILEGES NOT RIGHTS.

When police officers have more RIGHTS in this country that anyone else, I will agree we will have a problem.

However the PRIVILEGES afforded to police officers are for PUBLIC GOOD AS DECIDED BY THE PUBLIC, NOT FOR PERSONAL BENEFIT GRANTED BY A BUREAUCRACY.

These PRIVILEGES may be revoked at any time if an officer fails to discharge his/her duty or leaves the profession voluntarily.

A great many professions have special privileges granted to them by virtue of their office i.e. a guardsman not being subject to arrest enroute to guard duty, a clergyman not being subject to certain parking regulations during the course of their duties, etc. When I am not discharging my duties, I do not have any more privileges that you do with the exception of the restrictions on locations where I may carry concealed which I agree need to be fixed.

The common thread among all of these privileges is that they are considered necessary in the course of each profession's duties and the public, via their legislators, has sanctioned such privileges. As I said, if the public votes to have open carry, I obey the rules like everyone else.

That is where your argument loses traction.

Michael Brown

 

[Michael Brown]

Mr. Brown- Are there specific problems in open carry states which you can cite to demonstrate exactly how open carry is a problem?

Those Arizona bikers with the shotguns slung across their backs - are they actually committing crimes? I'm especially interested in them because the image is such a strong and fear-provoking one in the public's mind. Emotions overwhelming facts?

I don't believe the example cited is the best one and I agree it is intended to elicit fear.

That said, I have deliniated my position on open carry and what I believe are it's flaws, so I will not continue to repeat myself in every open carry thread we have.

If you are interested in what I have said, feel free to do a search in this subforum and it should not be difficult to find.

Michael Brown

 

[henschman]

I think others might be interested, as well, to see an example of an over-reaching generalization that I made so we know what constitutes over-stepping the line.

Pardon me if I can't find any... it is my own opinion, after all. I would appreciate you pointing any generalizations out to me. I definitely believe in the adage not to become too attached to an idea just because it's your own.

My intention was only to criticize people in the field of law enforcement who believe that one standard should apply to them, and a different one to everybody else, such as with open carry. I thought I was careful to narrow my remarks to what I referred to as "anti-liberty cops," and not to any of the members of the profession who consistently support and defend liberty... but I realize that sometimes one's true intentions do not come across in the intended way over the internet. If I said something that you see as painting all policemen with a broad brush, please point it out to me.

 

[Michael Brown]

In regards to the forum's rules, you may disagree with a police officer, official, political appointee, etc all you want as long as you do not offer the type of over-reaching generalizations and rampant disrespect that you did in your post.

If you wish to continue this discussion, you may do so via pm.

I didn't think this was unclear..........

Michael Brown

 

[Werewolf]

To all those opposed to open carry:

I'm still waiting for someone to answer the basic question why is it not a problem in states with OC but it would be a problem in Oklahoma.

 

[Michael Brown]

To all those opposed to open carry:

I'm still waiting for someone to answer the basic question why is it not a problem in states with OC but it would be a problem in Oklahoma.

There are few places that have the unrestricted open carry that you desire i.e with a state pre-emption.

The only ones I know of are Arizona (although I'm not sure of their municipal guidelines) and Vermont.

Vermont is a very small state so it's not a good comparison and we'll have to wait on Arizona since it's fairly new there.

In my opinion there is no proof one way or the other.

My objection to open carry has nothing to do with bloodbaths in the street, which are believe are highly unlikely.

Michael Brown

 

[grizzly97]

Here's a sight that breaks down the different types of open carry for each state. Pretty helpful and makes one realize how restrictive Oklahoma really is.

http://www.opencarry.org/maps.html