Zimmerman Prosecutor wants to add lesser charges, including child abuse....

[Shadowrider]

So EZ what do you think of O'Mara's closing so far? You still think you'd convict on manslaughter?

The 911 tape doesn't validate everything Zimmerman is saying (if you listen to the tapes) IMO. And the fact that Martin "Doubled back" sounds like BS. The 911 tape and testimony of the neighbor makes it evident that Martin got the drop on him, but there's no evidence that he doubled back to attack Zimmerman. He could very easily (based on evidence of the tape) just hidden while in fear of his life from the 28 year old armed Hispanic male who was following him late at night (the location of the supposed attack doesn't make sense that Zimmerman stopped following Martin) and jumped out on the offensive "Standing his ground" in defense of his life.

Yeah right. An unarmed 17 year old kid is going to knowingly take on a 28 year old armed Hispanic male.

 

[SMS]

I don't think you have to invoke the protection. If the homicide was justifiable, then the protection applies.

If he is found not-guilty...is not the homicide then automatically justifiable?

 

[ez bake]

For the sake of a legal discussion. Please cite the applicable Florida statute that allows one to stand their ground and/or assault someone who is following them.

I can follow you around all day long, if you are walking in a public place, and be within the law. The moment you stop and assault me because I'm following you, you are outside of the law.

IF Zimmerman had attacked Martin, I would agree that "those same laws also protect Martin.." But there is zero evidence that Zimmerman assaulted Martin and initiated the physical fight.

Lots of folks are using the fact that Zimmerman followed Martin as justification for convicting him of murder. While I think it was stupid of him to follow Martin, it doesn't mean he is guilty of murder in the resulting physical altercation unless the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman initiated the physical assault.

FL law doesn't say you have to be attacked, and I'd honestly say that being chased by a 28 year old Hispanic male with a gun is getting pretty close to falling within the confines of the Castle doctrine.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/florida’s-castle-doctrine-law-lets-actually-read-it/


Here's the odd thing - I spend half my "Zimmerman Martin" time defending George Zimmerman's position to my liberal friends and the other half defending Martin to my conservative friends (like here). I honestly believe as BB stated earlier that both men were in the wrong, but only one man died as a result of someone's "wrong doings".

 

[SMS]

FL law doesn't say you have to be attacked, and I'd honestly say that being chased by a 28 year old Hispanic male with a gun is getting pretty close to falling within the confines of the Castle doctrine.

True, but is following someone evidence of imminent use of unlawful force? Did TM know that GZ was armed?

A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force.

 

[Hobbes]

I don't think you have to invoke the protection. If the homicide was justifiable, then the protection applies.

If he is found not-guilty...is not the homicide then automatically justifiable?

He isn't claiming stand your ground defense. That is why you don't hear his attorneys even use the term.

The burden of proof in civil court is much less than criminal court.

 

[ez bake]

So EZ what do you think of O'Mara's closing so far? You still think you'd convict on manslaughter?

I'm honestly torn on this one man - I don't know that I could convict him on manslaughter, but at the same time there isn't a fiber in my being that thinks with Zimmerman's past criminal history, his statements on the 911 call, and his absolutely stupid actions that he's innocent of any wrong-doings - and a result of his wrong-doings was that a 17 year old kid died. IMO the 28 year old should have known better (but most of us sort of expect 17 year olds to make stupid decisions).

Race doesn't play as a factor for me at all, but my ties to the legal-gun-owner world do seem to affect my decision-making ability so I'm probably biased in that I know any conviction for Zimmerman will result in bad precedence for future SD shootings (and I myself could be involved in a SD shooting).

I keep looking at the fact that if one minor detail of this case was changed, it makes all the difference in the world. I try and take these situations as opportunities to learn (like the OKC Pharm case, the Tulsa Riverside case, etc.) and it's conceivable that any one of us could be in a similar situation (if say, the suspect was walking across your yard, or headed toward your family's home, or near a vehicle with your loved-one in it, etc. - would any of us have stepped in when previously we wouldn't have?).

What if my son were going home at night in his own neighborhood and saw someone with a gun following him?

I ask all of these questions to try and anticipate or at least be ready for some weird situation similar to this in the future - because it seems as if the situation for self-defense is more and more not so straight forward.

At the end of the day, right now... I'd say Zimmerman is at least guilty of gross negligence (since he should at least have anticipated trouble when following a suspected drug-induced criminal who was reaching into his waist-band - and he should have known better than to follow; legally or not he was at least negligently stupid) and that negligence resulted in the loss of someone's life (even if Martin attacked Zimmerman - it could way to easily be argued that it was a provoked attack).

Like I said man, nobody wins right now.

 

[SMS]

Like I said man, nobody wins right now.

Yup. I said waaay back when this started that if GZ had simply stayed in his vehicle none of this would be happening.

Case study for the armed citizen. If you carry a gun, don't go looking for trouble. You might find it and even if you survive your life as you know it will be over.

 

[BIG_MIKE2005]

At the end of the day, right now... I'd say Zimmerman is at least guilty of gross negligence (since he should at least have anticipated trouble when following a suspected drug-induced criminal who was reaching into his waist-band - and he should have known better than to follow; legally or not he was at least negligently stupid) and that negligence resulted in the loss of someone's life (even if Martin attacked Zimmerman - it could way to easily be argued that it was a provoked attack).

Like I said man, nobody wins right now.

Zimmerman knew nothing of this kid before the altercation. He didn't know his past, he didn't know the kid was going to get violent. He knew he was following a suspicious person who he knew didn't live in his neighborhood. He was on the phone with the dispatcher, he followed their instructions. He only shot Martin in self defense, weather people want to admit it or not. nothing made that kid violently confront Zimmerman except the kid. He had lost Zimmerman at one point & could have easily just keep on going to get away from the guy & headed to his dads house. But he did not do that, he decided to confront Zimmerman & in a violent manner. He could have simply asked "hey man, why are you following me" & then explained he was cutting through to get home. Situation would have been over at this point. Again, he did not take this logical route, he went straight to violence. So how exactly is that Zimmerman's fault? Simply following someone is not grounds for physical confrontation as far as the law is considered.

 

[ez bake]

Zimmerman knew nothing of this kid before the altercation. He didn't know his past, he didn't know the kid was going to get violent. He knew he was following a suspicious person who he knew didn't live in his neighborhood. He was on the phone with the dispatcher, he followed their instructions. He only shot Martin in self defense, weather people want to admit it or not. nothing made that kid violently confront Zimmerman except the kid. He had lost Zimmerman at one point & could have easily just keep on going to get away from the guy & headed to his dads house. But he did not do that, he decided to confront Zimmerman & in a violent manner. He could have simply asked "hey man, why are you following me" & then explained he was cutting through to get home. Situation would have been over at this point. Again, he did not take this logical route, he went straight to violence. So how exactly is that Zimmerman's fault? Simply following someone is not grounds for physical confrontation as far as the law is considered.

I used his words from the 911 transcript.

He said:

This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something.

Later he said:

he was just starring... looking at all the houses

Then:

He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a Black male.

That's what he knew about Martin. The CCW permit is not a badge. WTF would you follow someone you thought was up to no good, on drugs, and had his hand in his waistband (i.e. as if he had a weapon)?

That is beyond stupid and when you're carrying a firearm, it's at least criminally negligent because it means you're looking for trouble.

As to why Martin "attacked" Zimmerman - you're citing only Zimmerman's testimony and not just the facts from a neutral prospective.

I'd wager that if you were walking through your neighborhood to your house at night and an armed 28 year old Hispanic male started following you that you'd at least take some defensive measures (and you're not a 17 year old unarmed kid).

 

[Shadowrider]

I'd wager that if you were walking through your neighborhood to your house at night and an armed 28 year old Hispanic male started following you that you'd at least take some defensive measures (and you're not a 17 year old unarmed kid).

Yep. And if I had 4 minutes to travel 350'ish FEET to my house I think that would be be my defensive strategy. Even my old fat a$$ can can make that. I certainly wouldn't be hiding in the bushes unarmed planning to take on an armed opponent.