dpms panther lite 16

[Josh-L]

If you can't see the humor in my last line ( see post #65)..."you need to get out of the real world a bit more!"

Disclaimer...this is pointed at NO-ONE in specific, I just love to have fun with some of this!

I know you have dude! I was aiming that at the ones who have less then a couple hundred rounds on their guns and zero training classes under their belt and make blanket statements that because in 3 years and 300 rounds they haven't had any problems means they have a quality gun. I get a kick out of these threads too.

 

[Spooln-Rex]

Hey Josh i have a quick question for you. Since you do seem to know quite a bit about this stuff are you a FFL? just seems like most FFL's know more since they are dealers and have direct contact with the companies the general public would never get close to having. that being said i would just like to hear a bit more abou where your coming from.

 

[bratch]

do you think the 55gr vmax would be good for deer?

Not at all. The VMAX is a varmint bullet designed with limited penetration and fragmentation, not what you want in a deer bullet. The 60gr Nosler Partition and the Barnes that Olyeller mentioned are both good rounds for deer. There are also a variety of soft points in the mid 60 weight that would work.



As our buddy liliysdad likes to say there are 3 levels of gear "crap, good, and good enough"; I'd add a fourth group "decent". "Crap" is easy enough to describe Hesse, etc. "Good" gets a little blurred but Noveske, Colt, Sabre, Daniel Defense all fit in. "Good enough" fits most ARs right now RRA, Bushmaster, Stag, some DPMS, etc. "Decent" gets your entry level guns such as the DPMS Sporticle.

50% of the shooting population will be satisfied with the "decent" group of rifles, another 45% will be thrilled with a "good enough" rifle. Its the last 5% that need a "good" rifle.

What group do you fit into? If you don't know that you need/want a "good" rifle you'll probably be 100% happy with something from the "decent/good enough" group. Who needs a "good" rifle: military, LE, training junkies, and probably some 3 gun shooters. Who wants a "good" rifle anybody who doesn't want any question as to if there gear is up to the task.

Extreme conditions are where the rifles really begin to show what group they fit into. A hard carbine class is a good example of this. Most "good" rifles will survive a long training weekend with 1500 rounds fired, I'd expect a majority of good enough rifles to survive, decent rifles will have the highest failure rate. By survive I mean that they will complete to class with no to a minimum of failures that are attributable to the rifle and not the mags or ammo.

Ask yourself what you want to do with it. If your answer is shoot a few boxes of ammo ever couple of months at the range get whatever you want any decent rifle will do a great job at this. If your thinking about a couple practical rifle shoots or maybe a basic carbine course go with something in the Bushmaster/RRA/Stag range. If you are planning on training regularly in tough conditions, shooting competitions often, or just enjoy having Tier 1 gear go ahead and get the Colt/Sabre/Noveske.

ARs span the price range and each price point has its plusses and minuses. Finding what fits with your needs, desires, and wallets can be a little tricky but with some no BS thought about it, it can prevent headaches and walletaches down the road.

Buy what you like, what you can afford, and what will fulfill your needs and you'll be happy.

I'm discussing factory out of the box rifles, once you start dropping new bolts and carrier groups into rifles and adding higher quality components the lines really get blurred.

 

[DeadEyeDick]

no extreme training for me. i want to use it for deer, hog, rabbit, prairie dog etc. thanks for your help. your post is very informative.

 

[grwd]

Hey Josh i have a quick question for you. Since you do seem to know quite a bit about this stuff are you a FFL? just seems like most FFL's know more since they are dealers and have direct contact with the companies the general public would never get close to having. that being said i would just like to hear a bit more abou where your coming from.

Yes, he is, hes also law enforcement, and has had a couple (or more than a couple) of classes, as an AR armorer and a shooter.

Im kinda in the same boat, and my buddy KurtM is the mack daddy AR God. He knows folks in the industry I never even heard of.
Hes also done a lot of T&E for Gun makers. Even shoots em once in a while.

Osa is very fortunate to have these guys around.

 

[Spooln-Rex]

+1 Bratch i think you summed it up extremely well.

 

[aeropb]

The first 6 posts of this thread were the best.

 

[fishn&huntn]

If I did'nt know that 223 was a horrible deer round, I would get a 24" 1 in8 or faster and run the heaviest bullet it could stabilize,but I do so I would get a 270,308,30-06 ect.and an AR for play and defense

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

As our buddy liliysdad likes to say there are 3 levels of gear "crap, good, and good enough"; I'd add a fourth group "decent". "Crap" is easy enough to describe Hesse, etc. "Good" gets a little blurred but Noveske, Colt, Sabre, Daniel Defense all fit in. "Good enough" fits most ARs right now RRA, Bushmaster, Stag, some DPMS, etc. "Decent" gets your entry level guns such as the DPMS Sporticle.

50% of the shooting population will be satisfied with the "decent" group of rifles, another 45% will be thrilled with a "good enough" rifle. Its the last 5% that need a "good" rifle.

What group do you fit into? If you don't know that you need/want a "good" rifle you'll probably be 100% happy with something from the "decent/good enough" group. Who needs a "good" rifle: military, LE, training junkies, and probably some 3 gun shooters. Who wants a "good" rifle anybody who doesn't want any question as to if there gear is up to the task.

Extreme conditions are where the rifles really begin to show what group they fit into. A hard carbine class is a good example of this. Most "good" rifles will survive a long training weekend with 1500 rounds fired, I'd expect a majority of good enough rifles to survive, decent rifles will have the highest failure rate. By survive I mean that they will complete to class with no to a minimum of failures that are attributable to the rifle and not the mags or ammo.

Ask yourself what you want to do with it. If your answer is shoot a few boxes of ammo ever couple of months at the range get whatever you want any decent rifle will do a great job at this. If your thinking about a couple practical rifle shoots or maybe a basic carbine course go with something in the Bushmaster/RRA/Stag range. If you are planning on training regularly in tough conditions, shooting competitions often, or just enjoy having Tier 1 gear go ahead and get the Colt/Sabre/Noveske.

ARs span the price range and each price point has its plusses and minuses. Finding what fits with your needs, desires, and wallets can be a little tricky but with some no BS thought about it, it can prevent headaches and walletaches down the road.

Buy what you like, what you can afford, and what will fulfill your needs and you'll be happy.

I'm discussing factory out of the box rifles, once you start dropping new bolts and carrier groups into rifles and adding higher quality components the lines really get blurred.

Bratch makes excellent points. I would agree that 95% of folks will never ride their guns hard enough to need a "good" rifle, but the 5% whose lives (or other peoples lives) depend on them will want the "good" ones.

I was shooting one of my ACOG equipped AR at the SCRAP range some time back when another shooter with his AR that had an illuminated chinese clone ACOG on it started telling me that I was a dumba$$ for buying a high dollar real ACOG when his cheap clone would do everything mine would do. He had shot 200rds through his after initial zero and it has held zero ever since. His rifle had even fallen over (while in its padded case) and it still held zero. I told him, lets do this: We will each take off our optics and hurl them downrange as far as we can. Since they will be dirty when they land, let's dunk them in the lake next to the range to rinse them off. We will then re-mount them and see if they both still hold zero. Needless to say, he did not take me up on this.

My point is, you will not see much difference between "good" and "good enough/decent" until you ride the really hard and most folks will never do that.

 

[KurtM]

DPMS doesn't make two grades of bolts, carriers, or barrels. The Sportical is less expensive due to less features, not lower quality parts. To say some DPMS rifles are ok and others not simply isn't acknowledging the fact that they all get the same stuff. Of all the stuff you guys have listed ONLY Saber makes most all of it's own parts.

When I give rifle/cabine classes I usually see the D rifles almost always are trouble free no matter what "level" people may think they have. If your AR feeds well and the barrel is as accurate as you are and you MAINTAIN it, most any of them will be just fine for any class/competition/hard use. BTW one of the "high end rifles" mentioned uses DPMS bolts, carriers and trigger groups. Many of the high end small builders make "factory franken guns", but like sausage since you don't see it being made, it got to be good cause it says Jimmy Dean instead of Homelands Best.

I love how some of these things get started. I was standing with one of the guys who actually make the carbine STI sells, at the shot show looking at one of the STI guns, A guy comes up and whispers to us that "you don't want one of those, they use Green Mountain barrels. Those have been known to blow up and none of them are accurate". Guy I was with said I am pretty sure they don't use Green Mountain barrels, where did you hear that. He quietly said "I have a friend that works at STI who buils the carbines and he told me". Funny part is that rifle isn't made anywhere near Texas or STI. We both just smiled and said thanks for the warning. I know of one manufacturer who says he loves when Colt runs low on parts and comes shopping cause they are spending Government money. And so it all goes.