Martin's dad to speak to congress

[aviator41]

Not in the data I showed. The data was broken into groups based on the census taken previous to the data being published, but the only data shown was for "white" "black" "American Indian/Native Alaskan" and "Asian, Pacific Islander"

This leaves many groups unaccounted for in the list. of particular note, Latino's. In the published data, Latino's are grouped into the "white" category, which is why the word "caucasion" is not used to describe the group.

Of similar note, "blacks" included not only African Americans, but members of other African Nations. Hence the use of the term "black" instead of "African American"

 

[BIG_MIKE2005]

just for arguments sake, lets take your numbers and assume they are accurate:

69.2% of the arrests were white
28.4% of the arrests were black.

during that year,

72.4% of the population of the U.S. was white.
12.6% of the population of the U.S. was black.

ratio of white population to white arrest: 0.955801 to 1
ratio of black population to black arrest: 2.253968 to 1

12.6 percent of the population is responsible for 28.4% of the crime. hmm..... the white population is responsible for 'its part' no doubt. just a little under what it's population percentage is. All races have their share of 'real winners' - Just watch Jerry Springer, LOL. why aren't the numbers the same for the black population of America? Seems to me they should be. But they're not. never have been. It's getting better, but it's not there. not by a long shot.

you would think that if whites make up 70% of the population, they'd be responsible for 70% of the crime (and roughly, they are) and since
blacks make up 12% of the population, they're responsible for 12% of the crime - but they're responsible for more than TWICE that much crime.

This is exactly what people do not want to talk about for fear of being labeled racists. And this was the point others were getting at as well. No one was claiming white's don't have their own problems, but the numbers do not lie. Honestly it is sad to see these numbers cause it shows a serious problem inside the black communities that no one ever wants to talk about or address. It's always someone else's fault or the white man keeping them down. That is where the responsibility & accountability come in.

 

[aviator41]

That's assuming that the officers (at first contact) are evenly applying their use of "discretion;" that two individuals (of different race) would be treated exactly the same for the same offense.

The data does it's best to account for that. As an example, a single encounter that might lead of several arrests for an individual (the example given is arresting one person for 5 different car thefts that had happened over the last two weeks) but only count as a single encounter, and therefore are only counted once.

Similarly, a person arrested for Public Intoxication but received additional charges for a small amount of Marijuana as well as resisting arrest would count as a single arrest in this data.

 

[caojyn]

The data does it's best to account for that. As an example, a single encounter that might lead of several arrests for an individual (the example given is arresting one person for 5 different car thefts that had happened over the last two weeks) but only count as a single encounter, and therefore are only counted once.

Similarly, a person arrested for Public Intoxication but received additional charges for a small amount of Marijuana as well as resisting arrest would count as a single arrest in this data.

discretion would also involve whether or not to arrest. Person A gets charged with drug possession, and person B gets a ride home and his parents told.

 

[jmike314]

OK...OK....

That's right. you're absolutely correct. there is a serious problem.

See...I knew there was some common ground somewhere.

just for arguments sake, lets take your numbers and assume they are accurate

Why would my numbers be any less accurate than yours? I provided links to all the sources I used. I even used numbers from the same report you posted.

Your argument would be like saying "more zebra die in Oklahoma per year that Whitetail Deer, based on percentage of their respective populations" - well no shiznat. there's maybe 4 zebra in the entire state. kill one and you've wiped out 25% of the states population. what percentage of the deer population is "one deer" ? oh! but 25% of all zebras? that's awful! Travesty! we have to stop to merciless killing of our poor Zebras!!! we're loosing a quarter of the herd every year! (still was just one zebra - doesn't matter how you slice it).

Yep...this makes a clear point, when you break it into crime rates for this one specific group and that one specific group.
However, using your scenario what about this - say 1 of the 4 Zebras living in Oklahoma goes crazy and starts attacking children. That means 25% of all Zebra in Oklahoma are attacking children.
Now look at whitetail deer...like maybe 100,000 in Oklahoma? Say 10,000 of those deer go crazy and start attacking children. That's 10% of all the whitetail deer in Oklahoma attacking children.
While a larger percentage of the Zebra population has gone crazy, a larger actual number of the whitetail deer population are doing the same. Which one would you be more concerned about?
Numbers and statistics are a funny thing. They can be made to say almost anything and support any cause. Is it possible to agree on that?

What I don't agree with is that we all commit crimes at the same rate. Blacks don't just commit "their fair share" of crime.

I understand the percentage based on race is disproportionate. The rate is fairly alarming. If the populations were equal then the numbers would be frightening. But there are almost 6 times as many whites in America as blacks (approximately 225,000 white & 40,000 black) and I don't ever see there being over 200,000 black people in this country.

But unless your an expert on young black men in America - and I mean a properly papered, masters degree holding, published expert on the topic, I don't think you'd have any right to address the caucus

If you say an expert is a person who has studied young, American black men for a generously extended amount of time - gone to school and received degrees - published papers and conducted research - spoken to many, many young black men - has written books on the subject - etc. I would agree that he/she would have a higher level of knowledge in this area. But what if this person was Asian and born and raised in Japan. It doesn't lessen his professional training but it definitely shows a lack of personal experience that I would consider very important to the subject matter.
I'm not an expert, but I did live it. Coincidentally, growing up I was asked to serve on more than one committee as a representative for youth in my state and I was also asked on more than one occasion to speak about the youth/black youth experience of my day.

But that caucus isn't fighting for underprivileged young men in America.

We don't know what will come of the caucus. I just figured we'd let them screw up first before we ran them out of town. Trust me, I'll be standing in line with a lot of other people ready to cast a stone, if it turns into something it shouldn't.

They say 'Quit putting the black man down' we need to overcome!

Never once said it. I've earned everything I've got. Didn't always get what I wanted, but I never blamed anyone else for that.

Frankly, JMike, you sound like a good man. The kind of person I could be good friends with out in the world. Your intelligent, thoughtful, inquisitive and obviously have a very good head on your shoulders.

Now you're going to make me blush (It's hard to tell on a black man so you'll have to take my word for it).
I could say the same exact words regarding you as I hold no ill will towards you at all. I'd never know about the other side of an argument if I didn't listen to what others had to say.
There's common ground here...You like to shoot, I like to shoot, 2A is important, crime sucks all around, America has it's issues but I'd take it over anywhere else - we don't have to agree on everything.

 

[jmike314]

So, in the stats are all non-black ,considered white?

My bad. I was just referring to black and white for the sake of argument. Didn't mean to leave anyone out.

The other races listed were Asian/Pacific Islander and Native American/Eskimo. They were both very small percentages.

This is exactly what people do not want to talk about for fear of being labeled racists. And this was the point others were getting at as well. No one was claiming white's don't have their own problems, but the numbers do not lie. Honestly it is sad to see these numbers cause it shows a serious problem inside the black communities that no one ever wants to talk about or address. It's always someone else's fault or the white man keeping them down. That is where the responsibility & accountability come in.

I don't see a problem with civil discussion on the subject. I have yet to call anyone a racist here. I wasn't blaming anybody.
Responsibility and accountability should come into play on both sides.....black people should definitely step up, but they should be alone in the effort. If all blacks stopped committing crimes, over 2/3 of the original crime would still exist. Who's responsibility is that.

 

[aviator41]

The bottom line is this is why the caucus is meaningless. they are addressing the problem by incorrectly answering the question 'what is the problem?'

I stand on the ruling of the court. Zimmerman didn't need 'fixing' - the child rearing skills of his parents do. the culture TM was raised in does. The young black man needs to have a better self image, expect - no demand - higher standards for himself. It doesn't take caucus for that. it takes a shift in thinking at the level of TM's parents and every other parent raising a child, regardless of skin color.

and TM's father has no business speaking publicly about anything but how he failed to raise a respectful son who was relevant to the free society that makes up this country.

I'd be ashamed to show my face in public if I were him. Instead his peers have convinced him he's been wronged - and that's just not the case. He is the perfect example of how you do a disservice to your child.

 

[_CY_]

Only idiots and trolls are using that approach these days.
There was never a case for stalking.

oh really .. if your ******** logic is correct... then all the folks taking part of the MASS protest all over USA are idiots and trolls.. ya right

Or the evidence was not there to convict or, dare I say, the evidence supported lawful self defense.

would agree the evidence to convict was not there.... it's not exactly a secret one of the jury members thought Zimmerman got away with murder. not having evidence to convict because it was too dark, conflicting testimony, etc. etc is not the same is being innocent.

this could end up another OJ .. where he got off criminal charges, but lost civil case. stripping him of all his assets. And now is in jail for another matter.

don't know if I agree evidence supported lawful self defense. Good grief Zimmerman initialized the events that ended up with Martin getting shot. to some folks that's just not right for that to be legal. what I'm worried about is all the MASS protest could end up effecting our 2A rights.

 

[JB Books]

So history DOES matter? White people get better representation in the court system? White people get better representation due to generations of hard work?
I thought you believed that someone threw a switch in 1964 and we all instantly became equal.

If generations of "hard work" get you better representation, what do generations of slavery, peonage and Jim Crowe get you?

This is a good question. We know the answer, but some here don't want to believe it.

 

[aeropb]

So history DOES matter? White people get better representation in the court system? White people get better representation due to generations of hard work?
I thought you believed that someone threw a switch in 1964 and we all instantly became equal.

If generations of "hard work" get you better representation, what do generations of slavery, peonage and Jim Crowe get you?

Are you discrediting generations of hard work by black people?