Philosophical question about CCW

[poopgiggle]

I've been thinking about this since I started carrying.

Michael Brown wrote a great piece in the CCW forum about whether your defense gun is a viable tool in your hands, or if it's a talisman that you hope will ward off evil. I've seen Travis Haley talking about making sure you and your gun are an asset to society, rather than a liability.

My questions are as follows:

1. What do people think is due diligence for a concealed carrier, in terms of shooting skill? Is there an objective standard that people can work towards, like "should be able to do a Dozier Drill in under _ seconds"?

2. How do we encourage people who carry to maintain this level of proficiency?

The second is a tricky one. I think that people have an inalienable right to defend themselves, and putting a skill requirement on practicing an inalienable right is wrong (feel free to disagree with me on this). So, legally-required training is out. We can try to encourage training within the community but I think the proportion of gun owners who are serious enough to be part of the "shooting community" is pretty small.

Personally, I'd like to see a pistol-focused equivalent of the Appleseed Project, quality training at an accessible price that focused on responsible armed citizenship. I think that training citizens to be more responsible about self defense is in line with Appleseed's mission.

I'd also like to see more aggressive prosecution of improper use of concealed firearms (feel free to disagree with this too). I believe that personal responsibility is a two-sided coin: we recognize your right to carry a handgun, but using that right irresponsibly (drawing when you shouldn't, hitting innocent bystanders) will be punished.

I know this would be more properly placed in the CCW forum, but I wanted to get more eyeballs on this.

 

[Gideon]

Personally, I'd like to see a pistol-focused equivalent of the Appleseed Project, quality training at an accessible price that focused on responsible armed citizenship. I think that training citizens to be more responsible about self defense is in line with Appleseed's mission.

I agree with this idea entirely, and would even suggest that it could be an alternative to CC permit classes since the training here would be the equivalent of a CC class plus a little extra.

 

[JeffT]

I believe the right to carry a weapon, requires the responsibility to be able to use it. Before I could carruy a squirrel gun into the woods I had to display the responsibility to be able to carry it safely and use it proficiently.
That was just the rules in the world I grew up in.
I think those same rules should apply to CCW. If you can't carry it safely and use it proficiently, you should not carry it.

Each of us, Enforcing those standards on ourselves, means we have to practice.
I believe it would be almost impossible to enforce mandated practice, or force people to practice.

 

[Glocktogo]

I've been thinking about this since I started carrying.

Michael Brown wrote a great piece in the CCW forum about whether your defense gun is a viable tool in your hands, or if it's a talisman that you hope will ward off evil. I've seen Travis Haley talking about making sure you and your gun are an asset to society, rather than a liability.

My questions are as follows:

1. What do people think is due diligence for a concealed carrier, in terms of shooting skill? Is there an objective standard that people can work towards, like "should be able to do a Dozier Drill in under _ seconds"?

2. How do we encourage people who carry to maintain this level of proficiency?

The second is a tricky one. I think that people have an inalienable right to defend themselves, and putting a skill requirement on practicing an inalienable right is wrong (feel free to disagree with me on this). So, legally-required training is out. We can try to encourage training within the community but I think the proportion of gun owners who are serious enough to be part of the "shooting community" is pretty small.

Personally, I'd like to see a pistol-focused equivalent of the Appleseed Project, quality training at an accessible price that focused on responsible armed citizenship. I think that training citizens to be more responsible about self defense is in line with Appleseed's mission.

I'd also like to see more aggressive prosecution of improper use of concealed firearms (feel free to disagree with this too). I believe that personal responsibility is a two-sided coin: we recognize your right to carry a handgun, but using that right irresponsibly (drawing when you shouldn't, hitting innocent bystanders) will be punished.

I know this would be more properly placed in the CCW forum, but I wanted to get more eyeballs on this.

On the first part, my level of due diligence is this: Know your limitations. If you cannot hit an assailant beyond 3 feet, then your range is three feet. If you can hit an assailant at 15 yards, then your range is 15 yards. If you shoot outside your known skill level, then you are a detriment to everything beyond your target.

Many CCW instructors are the only person a CCW permit applicant will ever see. I'd expect them to encourage further training, as the SDA class is NOT shooting or self defense instruction. It is only a familiarization fire course.

A pistol version of Appleseed would be a great idea. I just don't think it will reach very far beyond the core shooting community. To expect it to have a significant impact on the 100K SDA permit holders would be overly optimistic.

As for the prosecutions, yes & no. For those who actually imperil their fellow citizens, yes. For those who inadvertently violate a SDA rule that does not actually endanger anyone, then no.

 

[zoomaster1]

Personally, I feel that the currant CCW class is just an 8 hour gun safety class. Just because you can "safely" miss the target, doesn't mean you should carry a firearm. I took my class at Carry Legal, and a month after I got my permit, they offered their new Intermidiate Concealed Carry I class. This was almost 11 hours of range time spent learning how to draw your weapon from concealment, clear mis-fires with snap caps, creating space allowing you to draw, and accually drawing and pulling the trigger (gun empty of course) at another human being. That my friend, was a real eye opener. Speed drills with a steel target while being timed werer great. Times were compared at the end of class, and the improvement was fanomial! Long story short, I think everyone should be REQUIRED to take this kind of class, say, no more than 6 months after recieving their permit to be able to keep it. I know this sounds kind of harsh, but I believe you should be properly trained to exercise this particular right.

 

[poopgiggle]

A pistol version of Appleseed would be a great idea. I just don't think it will reach very far beyond the core shooting community. To expect it to have a significant impact on the 100K SDA permit holders would be overly optimistic.

I don't know if this would be allowed or not, but working with CCW instructors to get them to encourage participation would be a good way to reach people. They should already be encouraging people to seek further training.

Instructing that many people properly would be hard, too. You would need a training infrastructure like what the US Army has.

The Pistolseed thing is really just wishful thinking on my part. I don't really see it as a viable solution to the substandard training level of CCW holders.

 

[poopgiggle]

On the first part, my level of due diligence is this: Know your limitations. If you cannot hit an assailant beyond 3 feet, then your range is three feet. If you can hit an assailant at 15 yards, then your range is 15 yards. If you shoot outside your known skill level, then you are a detriment to everything beyond your target.

Good response. Followup question: what is the baseline level of proficiency for adequate self defense? The first reply was a good answer to, "what do you do to make sure you're not a liability to others." How about making sure your gun is an asset that allows you to perform in a realistic self-defense situation?

 

[ExSniper]

So who sets the standard? How would you measure that on an on-going basis? Who keeps the documentation? What about the guy who needs a self defense weapon but just cannot afford the time or money to get more training?
Get all the training you can. Practice as much as you can. Study self defense shootings, criminal behavior, after action reports on shootings, any other info you can get to make yourself more knowledgeable. Accept responsibility for yourself and your actions.

 

[Rajder]

Long story short, I think everyone should be REQUIRED to take this kind of class, say, no more than 6 months after recieving their permit to be able to keep it. I know this sounds kind of harsh, but I believe you should be properly trained to exercise this particular right.

I completely agree with you. I think extensive training should be a must. But then we get into the issue of who gets to decide how much training is required. And the only way that you could mandate the increased training is with government laws because no amount of self policing is ever going to accomplish anything on a large scale. So now you get into the issue of the government imposing harsher training for the CCW license and that brings up another can of worms. So I agree that more extensive training should be required but I don't know how to do it. Because the only way to actually get it done is for it to be government imposed and that will just piss alot of people off.

 

[kroberts2131]

Personally, I feel that the currant CCW class is just an 8 hour gun safety class. Just because you can "safely" miss the target, doesn't mean you should carry a firearm. I took my class at Carry Legal, and a month after I got my permit, they offered their new Intermidiate Concealed Carry I class. This was almost 11 hours of range time spent learning how to draw your weapon from concealment, clear mis-fires with snap caps, creating space allowing you to draw, and accually drawing and pulling the trigger (gun empty of course) at another human being. That my friend, was a real eye opener. Speed drills with a steel target while being timed werer great. Times were compared at the end of class, and the improvement was fanomial! Long story short, I think everyone should be REQUIRED to take this kind of class, say, no more than 6 months after recieving their permit to be able to keep it. I know this sounds kind of harsh, but I believe you should be properly trained to exercise this particular right.

I also took my class at Carry Legal. I have been considering taking that class myself. I'm glad to see a review about it. I'm gonna have to look into it now.

I think an easier fix to the continuning training would be requiring all CCW holders to take a refresher course every 3-5 years. This is not nearly enough training but it is by far more than most people receive. But it will reach more people than it currently does.

The class could cost $25. Everytime you renew, you take the class. Its not the same class every time. Various levels of information would be presented in each class, depending on how long you have been a permit holder. You could even make the $25 included in the renewal fee