Unions

[ez bake]

So this seems to be a hot topic and yet a lot of misinformation going around about it and I'll be honest - I haven't spent a lot of time researching all the ins and outs of Union pros/cons.

Let's try and post facts (the welfare thread did quite well I thought) with sources if you can. If you have an opinion, then that's cool too, just don't post the same tired talking points we all hear on the news or drive-by trolling posts.

Here's some questions I've always wondered (admittedly, my only source for unions is my dad always bitching about them):


1. What is so bad about Unions (be specific and try and use facts)?

2. Is the above problem really that wide-spread or is it just a few newsworthy events (like the New Jersey storm / Electric thing) that make everything look worse than it is? Keep in mind this is the same mentality that anti-gun folks use whenever a shooting-spree gets sensationalized in the news.

Edited to clarify what I meant
3. What would happen if Unions suddenly ceased tomorrow (workers showed up, but no union to protect them) - no transition plan, no government regulations on what corporations can do to their employees? Would American industry suffer? Would workers be $#!+ on by corporations that no longer had to worry what they did to employees?

4. How much damage do Unions actually do (employing scumbag do-nothings, wasting money, power-tripping, promoting bad work-habbits, etc.) and what is this amount compared to corporate fraud/waste/abuse (much of which is government-aided via tax-breaks, bail-outs, unfair regulation giving one corporation an advantage, etc.)?

 

[Leemaxx]

I'm a union member. I hate them, never needed them. See number 4 on your list, they do all of that and then some. On the flip side the company I work for would completely gut us without the union. Now they are just slow bleeding us. I don't think all company's are like that, just look at lists of the top 100 company's to work for most don't have unions.

 

[The German]

As an employeer, unions typically cost you more money and cause you more headache, but they also keep yoou in check.
As an employee, they keep you safe from management having free will on you and changing and doing whatever they want.

It is really much deeper than union vs nonunion. It has more to do with the CBA that is agreed on between management and employees. I am a union member but I am also a government employee so things are a little different. We just went through a new CBA negotiations, but due to realignment there were 2 work areas now combined, we each had different unions, so we had a vote for this union, that union, or no union. The biggest thing is that if it went to no union, then my 6 hrs of leave every pay period could be changed to 2, my sick leave could be taken away. I could get in trouble and management would not have an obligation to discuss it with me.

Unions get a bad rap from employees because as you said they protect the bad employees too. But it is important to remember that they are protecting the PROCESS not the individual. I am involved in my union, but just interviewed for a managers job yesterday, I think what I have learned being involved in a union will greatly help when I am management. If the process is the complaint then they need a better CBA.

Without unions things would probably be cheaper, but also less regulated internally. There would be more employee turn around since employers willl more freely fire people. There would be no obligation to train employees.

It is a give and take discussion. Most people complain about unions but have never been a part of one, or dont like them because when they were part of one they did not protect them when they got caught sleepling on the job or doing something else stupid.

 

[Leemaxx]

I think if my union took a more proactive stance on disciplining it's own member it would be a lot better for everyone. It's my understanding that's the way it was back in the day.

 

[Jim Corrigan]

People don't like unions because Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck tell them to.

 

[badrinker]

My dad belonged to a union for 20 yrs, my father-in-law (whom I'm now closer to than my dad) successfully helped break up a large union, so I've heard both views over the years.
My take would be that unions at one time were very needed, many job conditions were far more dangerous than they needed to be, unions helped improve that, and helped give many workers a "living" wage.
Their need today is greatly lessened. The general populance is more educated and much more able to reach out to others when/if needed due to improvements in transportation and communication.
IMHO the biggest problems with unions is when they overstep their bounds. They have no need to protect the lazy/incompentent worker. They have no need to inject themselves into the political process.

If they stayed true to their original purposes of protecting their workers, I don't think anyone would object to a union (well, maybe a few greedy owners).

 

[Leemaxx]

Badrinker, that's the way I feel about.

 

[WalkerBulldog]

I'll try to stay as factual as possible, but it's hard to talk about unions without interjecting opinion.

1. What is so bad about Unions (be specific and try and use facts)?

Unions are not inherently bad. However, their leadership can be. Some are unabashed socialists, and many more seem to act more on the interests of getting more dues paying members for the union, and less on the interests of the union memberships. This is why in some states it's illegal to be a bag boy unless you join a union (California). Unions have also made employment in some industries harder. The UAW won't let you get a job at GM unless you're related to a UAW/CAW member.

On the other hand, some unions, like police and firemen unions, have served important roles in helping to defend their members in stupid lawsuits. But you hear about that less than when the leaders of the SEIU open their big, stupid mouths.

2. Is the above problem really that wide-spread or is it just a few newsworthy events (like the New Jersey storm / Electric thing) that make everything look worse than it is? Keep in mind this is the same mentality that anti-gun folks use whenever a shooting-spree gets sensationalized in the news.

Not sure how wide-spread the "problem" is, but some of the larger unions have certainly made themselves newsworthy. The UAW is lead by a self avowed communist. The SEIU and the AFL/CIO have been fairly openly hostile towards right-to-work states, and have sought to make it easier for unions to set up shop in various businesses. Boeing had issues with trying to set up a factory in South Carolina because the union in Washington was crying foul over using workers who actually voted their union out. They've certainly not given themselves too much good press.

3. What would happen if Unions suddenly stopped tomorrow - no transition plan, no government regulations on what corporations can do to their employees? Would American industry suffer? Would workers be $#!+ on by corporations that no longer had to worry what they did to employees?

The reality is that only about 7% of employees in the USA are actually members of a union. Also, much of why unions were founded in the first place are now laws and federal agencies like OSHA. I would argue nothing would really change, and in this day in age of free flowing information and workplace mobility, a company treating their employees badly would be outed fairly quickly, and they'll find themselves unable to find anyone to hire. If anything you might see lower wages or compensation in some areas, to coincide more with free market prices, and costs of some products will go down.

4. How much damage do Unions actually do (employing scumbag do-nothings, wasting money, power-tripping, promoting bad work-habbits, etc.) and what is this amount compared to corporate fraud/waste/abuse (much of which is government-aided via tax-breaks, bail-outs, unfair regulation giving one corporation an advantage, etc.)?

The biggest damage that unions do are preventing workforce mobility, and preventing discipline. As above, in many cases unions make it harder to get a job. Most unions favor seniority over performance, which does lead to an overall depression in productivity. Unions often ask for wages and compensation over what "open shops" offer, raising the cost of certain products. Unions can and do often destroy the manager-employee relationship, and prevent union members from advancing into managerial positions. This last point is one of the biggest reasons that Wal-Mart is anti-union.

Finally, unions often create the dumbest rules which only lead to decreased productivity and increased cost. In NYC, a news anchor can't pour his own glass of water. The UAW does not allow members to be fired outright, but rather must go through a months long process in which the offending member spends his 8 hours in a room doing nothing until the UAW approves his firing.

I think the biggest issue people have with unions is when they get involved in politics, and when they seem to act in the self interest of the union even at the detriment of the union members. Like, those New Jersey idiots who chased off the Alabama utility workers trying to help clean up after Sandy. It really makes them look selfish, idiotic, and bullish.

 

[11b1776]

I am a union member I will try and answer some of your questions.
Question 1; yes even the crap employees are under the same protection as everyone else. Are there more steps to firing a union employee vs a non union in most cases yes. Most unions have payed holidays of some type even if they do not work. To me these are plus' except the crap employee part.

#2. Like everything else the media shows only what they want people to hear. The big 3 automakers problems are mostly put on the UAW, they are the exception rather than the rule for unions. Most corporations that have unions work hand in hand together to get things done, nothing over the top, unlike some of the things the UAW workers got.

#3. I think wages and benefits would defiantly would go down, firing without cause would happen, but would thing stop, no people have families and bills to pay. No government regulations would mean no safety, no workers comp, but big profits marins for business'

#4. Crap employees do cost the company production, worker comp problems, things of that nature, but aren't much different than ununion crap employees doing the same thing. I bet everyone has an example of joe blow not doing his fair share, faking accidents/injurys. The unions has more steps to take to fire someone but if they go by the rules they have agreed to there is nothing the union can do, they don't have a leg to stand on.

If you have other questions or want a better answer let me know I will try to answer them.

 

[11b1776]

Not everything comes to light on right to work issues, by law in right to work states non union members get the protection of the union, the union has to afford them everything a member gets.