Unions

[reddog1]

Some good reads here!

 

[mr ed]

You know there was once a place called the Soviet UNION and everybody that wanted to work had to have a card.

 

[p238shooter]

If you work for a living you can thank unions for health insurance, the 8 hour work day, 5 day work week, worker safety laws, workman’s comp, minimum wage, child labor laws, building codes, certification of skills, public schooling and retirement benefits. None of those magically appeared as a result of someone's gracious benevolence. They were earned with blood and sweat.

I totally agree with you that unions were needed in the early days of the industrial revolution, but like a clock pendulum, I think it has swung too far the other way.

I was a union construction worker for over 12 years.
I owned a business using union labor for 6 years.
I owned a business not using union labor (not available) for over 15 years.

As a union construction worker, I attended apprenticeship classes and became a respected electrician. I applied my self and graduated #1 in my class of 25. While working I saw my union protect others that could not figure out how to wire a 3 way switch or bend a 90 in a piece of conduit with four tries. They were protected so they could remain on the job so they could "work" beside me and make the same $/hr while I was wiring motor controls and bending multiple concentric bends of pipe. Some of these "Journeymen" did not even make a good apprentice. My boss could not get rid of them, I had to carry them.

Using union members for my first business, I had to figure in that I would get 25% great workers, 50 % good workers, and 25% drones that I had to find something they were capable of doing that would not cost me more money screwing something up. I had to pay all of them the same.

My second business was mostly women in an office. If I had a good worker, I paid them more. If they were not so good, I paid them less. My philosophy was the ones who helped me make more money should be paid more. The ones that just came to work and did a minimal job did not get as much.

As a business owner who had a vision, worked days nights and weekends to start it and keep it going. (Have you ever known a business owner who worked 40 hours/wk? No, try 60 or 80.) Also most business owners invest all their life savings, borrow everything they can, and then do what they can to get by with the money they have to keep the company going to get to a point of making a profit. Giving your paycheck for a Christmas Turkey bonus for your employees is not an uncommon thing for a small business owner. For all that and more, the union comes in and tells you how to run your business, what employees you can have, how much of a pay raise you will give, what benefits you will provide.

Even without unions, the government is not much better. As an employee, if you do a great song and dance for a job interview, you have a job. It does not seem to make much difference whether you do a good job or not after that, your employer will have a hard time getting rid of you. You can quit any hour of the day because of government regulations, but the employer will have a hard time firing you for doing a poor job. I have not had to deal with Obamacare.

Then, if you happen to make a dollar, the government comes in and takes $.47 of it right off the top.

Unions have done a lot of good in the past, but are bankrupting business now because the pendulum has swung too far, just as the government regulations have done. Most business can not afford what the unions and the government has and is continuing to load on them.

By the way, in the original question, if we did not have the union people show up one morning, I think there are enough unemployed people or people that would like a better job that someone would step up and take that job unless naturally they were threatened or harmed by the union people, not because they could not do or could not learn to do the job. Yes experience is needed, but even though it might be rough for a while, it could be done, especially if the owner was able to get rid of the incompetent people and make that space available for someone who could and would do the job.

We are in for some hard times. You can only bleed the system so far and it will die. We do not let the good and talented hard working prosper on their own, they have to drag the bad and lazy with them. No different than our school systems that the classes have to progress at the pace of the slowest person that is not motivated to learn.

Fortunately my days of employee problems and paying outrageous taxes are over. Good Luck to all.

 

[ez bake]

That seems like an Apples to oranges comparison based on the purpose of the two distinct entities.

Unions are (supposed to be) looking out for the welfare of their members, whereas, corporations are looking out for the value the company brings to its shareholders. I would think there are a lot more regulations that could impact a companies bottom line than there are regulations that impede the welfare of union members.

Just thinking out loud...

Aren't Union leaders elected? I would think that would give them greater accountability to their members (understanding the mob-mentality and how that affects voters, but still...).

 

[p238shooter]

Aren't Union leaders elected? I would think that would give them greater accountability to their members (understanding the mob-mentality and how that affects voters, but still...).

Who gets the most votes, the candidate that is going to promote being at work on time every day and doing a good job so you can make your contractor money, and in turn can pay you more or you will be pulled off the job and sit on the bench -- Or the candidate that promises to make the contractor bend to your work schedule, not expect you to do a great job, and promises to protect your less fortunate brothers that are lazy while promising to get you a pay raise and more benefits or we will strike and put that rich contractor out of business?

Sounds familiar somehow.

 

[ez bake]

Who gets the most votes, the candidate that is going to promote being at work on time every day and doing a good job so you can make your contractor money, and in turn can pay you more or you will be pulled off the job and sit on the bench -- Or the candidate that promises to make the contractor bend to your work schedule, not expect you to do a great job, and promises to protect your less fortunate brothers that are lazy while promising to get you a pay raise and more benefits or we will strike and put that rich contractor out of business?

Sounds familiar somehow.

Then whose fault is it really?

Seems like a lot of hate for an inanimate object/entity when really we should be blaming specific people for manipulating it for the purpose of evil.

Also sounds familiar.

 

[okietool]

I've never belonged to any union.
But I've never heard of a union member being "let go" because he was working in a non-union shop.
I haven't had to deal with unions, but there seem to be a lot more anecdotes like the non-union workers being run off (like the one after Sandy) than union workers being run off.
I'm sure they have done some good. I'm also they have done some bad.
As far as Limbaugh and Beck, I think they actually are union members.

 

[p238shooter]

Then whose fault is it really?

Seems like a lot of hate for an inanimate object/entity when really we should be blaming specific people for manipulating it for the purpose of evil.

Also sounds familiar.

In my opinion, the people who want to force equality rather than the ones who want to give everyone an opportunity to earn equality are the problem. Force me to pay equal for un-eaqual workers for example. Force me to keep a screw up employee because I can not get rid of him and hire a better replacement.

 

[inactive]

Ez bake, I'm on a phone so I can't type or link easily, but check out the NEA aka the teachers union. Perhaps the most infamous union around in recent year aside from the UAW. A good flick to watch is Waiting for Superman. A biased documentary but pretty enlightening perspective.

 

[okietool]

Aren't Union leaders elected? I would think that would give them greater accountability to their members (understanding the mob-mentality and how that affects voters, but still...).

Are union leadership votes secret ballot?
It's seems like there have been stories in the news about unions not wanting the vote for or against unions being secret ballot. That sounds like an intimidation tactic to me.
I know there are hardcore on both sides. And anytime something gets hardcore, there are people who are willing to pass any line.