ha just went back and saw that.... maybe i should rotate my avatar for gun safety reasons of course.
I actually feel that being able to maneuver the light independent of the weapon is a detriment, not a benefit. With the light indelibly connected to the weapon, one is guaranteed a much shorter reaction time from target ID to the appropriate, necessary action.
Danny,here's a tip...look at peoples profiles.Lillysdad has been here a long time and he IS a cop not a armchair Kojak.I wonder how many people on here even know who that is?? LOL......"Who loves you baby??"
Reopened at the request of Michael Brown.Be advised that any name calling/pissing matches will result in a ban.Keep the conversation going but respect others opinions even if you think they are wrong.
I've got a Surefire XP300,I just like the separate handheld.I was trained to use the Harries technique and am confortable with it.
I've got a Surefire XP300,I just like the separate handheld.I was trained to use the Harries technique and am confortable with it.
I used to think the neck index was a little silly until we shot the simulator that had a night time scenario and we had to use the little 6p light. Once a threat jumped out I reacted by bringing my left hand up close to my face and engaging with my pistol obviously in the other hand. I had never practicd that but under stress thats what i did. After thought I actually started practicing with it and I like it now. If we are clearing a house on say an open door alarm I'll use my handheld. If it's a forced entry search or I know I'm looking for someone I'll use my x300. Can MB say what he prefers? If anyone in okc has an empty warehouse or office building I have a company lined up for some low light training but have not been able to find a structure to hold the FoF stuff at. They use airsoft so we shouldn't break anything.
Different tools for different purposes.
I always have a hand held light in my pocket. If I'm going to be out late or on the road at night, which I do a lot, I will carry my G19 with an X300.
The handheld light is a tool, it can be used for searching, working, navigation, target ID and pretty much anything else.
A weapon light as the very name suggests is an extension of the weapon. It's whole purpose in life is target acquisition. If you cannot adequately see the target you are attempting to sight in on you probably are not going to put effective rounds on the target.
Having a weapon light does not relieve you of the need to carry a hand held light.
Just some civvie dude's opinion.
Ek
I always have a hand held light in my pocket. If I'm going to be out late or on the road at night, which I do a lot, I will carry my G19 with an X300.
The handheld light is a tool, it can be used for searching, working, navigation, target ID and pretty much anything else.
A weapon light as the very name suggests is an extension of the weapon. It's whole purpose in life is target acquisition. If you cannot adequately see the target you are attempting to sight in on you probably are not going to put effective rounds on the target.
Having a weapon light does not relieve you of the need to carry a hand held light.
Just some civvie dude's opinion.
Ek
Nobodys saying a handheld isn't a good tool. I think that knowing when to turn your handheld light on and off is almost, if not just as important as where you hold it in relationship to your body, Amd deciding which to use.
This has been my experience:
The target indicator issue with a WML is no bull. It is a definite issue if you are using a WML as a primary in a searching capacity in a very low light environment.
I have a lot of hours working low light structure clearing in FOF both with a WML and without and a larger amount of experience clearing structures as a police officer and can offer this as my general guideline:
I do not do any type of searching with a WML as my primary. I always use a handheld with the light displaced away from my body. Having a WML as a backup is a good idea for those times you need to open doors or perform other tasks with your support hand.
Use of physical techniques like vertical and horizontal body displacement are impossible without a handheld light and when you hear sims rounds whizzing over your head during a vertical displacement, you know the concept is sound.
Where the WML shines (pun intended) is at the moment of engagement and when the structure being cleared is very large with long distances i.e. 25 meters or more such as a school or hospital where concepts like vertical displacement are not as critical.
At the distances we deal with most of the time i.e. houses or small businesses, vertical and horizontal displacement are critical and must be done with a handheld.
As a rule, I do not clear structures with a carbine or shotgun unless we are talkign about a school or hospital. Otherwise I almost always use a pistol and handheld light. I have WML's on both my shotgun and carbine.
The idea that the light allowing faster manipulations and faster shooting is a training scar created by not enough FOF training.
There are other issues to consider as well such as dozens of documented cases of ND injuries in the military and LE in which the WML was believed to be a contributing factor due to the position of the controls and sympathetic response of the firing hand.
If you are going to use a WML, use one with a grip activated switch and not one which you operate with the fingers of your off-hand.
Personally, I do not use a WML on my pistol at work but I do have one on my home defense gun, since one of my primary responsibilities will be shuttling two small children to our safe room but I still use a handheld in conjunction as my primary light until the WML is needed.
My rationale for not using one at work is multi-fold:
I believe the Safariland 070 to be the best combination of attributes for a patrol duty holster and they do not make one that allows a WML.
I use a hand-held for almost all searching tasks and if I thought a WML would be the better choice, it is likely that a long gun would be called for i.e. school or hospital and I have WML's on my long guns.
As far as other tasks i.e. vehicle takedowns, large group searches, etc. I tend to rely on ambient light since I work in an urban environment and have no trouble identifying or shooting under those circumstances, although I have no grievance with WML's under these circumstances and if I used one, I might use it under these circumstances.
Unlike many others, I try to minimize the use of light at work when feasible but rely on a handheld when I cannot.
I do not believe that WML's are bad per se; I just believe that most people's rationale for their use is misplaced and most would benefit from some low light FOF in order to make a more informed decision about whether they prefer a handheld or WML.
I will be hosting Southnarc's Armed Movement in Structures class in Tulsa sometime in the spring so I would suggest availing yourself of some training that might answer some of these questions for you.
Some other sources of this training are:
The Surefire Institute
Insights Training
Strategos International (the gold standard in this area)
Khyber Interactive Associates
USSA
All of these groups do actual structure clearing work in FOF, not just shooting at paper targets in low light.
Pick one that interests you and leave your mind open when you train.
Michael Brown
The target indicator issue with a WML is no bull. It is a definite issue if you are using a WML as a primary in a searching capacity in a very low light environment.
I have a lot of hours working low light structure clearing in FOF both with a WML and without and a larger amount of experience clearing structures as a police officer and can offer this as my general guideline:
I do not do any type of searching with a WML as my primary. I always use a handheld with the light displaced away from my body. Having a WML as a backup is a good idea for those times you need to open doors or perform other tasks with your support hand.
Use of physical techniques like vertical and horizontal body displacement are impossible without a handheld light and when you hear sims rounds whizzing over your head during a vertical displacement, you know the concept is sound.
Where the WML shines (pun intended) is at the moment of engagement and when the structure being cleared is very large with long distances i.e. 25 meters or more such as a school or hospital where concepts like vertical displacement are not as critical.
At the distances we deal with most of the time i.e. houses or small businesses, vertical and horizontal displacement are critical and must be done with a handheld.
As a rule, I do not clear structures with a carbine or shotgun unless we are talkign about a school or hospital. Otherwise I almost always use a pistol and handheld light. I have WML's on both my shotgun and carbine.
The idea that the light allowing faster manipulations and faster shooting is a training scar created by not enough FOF training.
There are other issues to consider as well such as dozens of documented cases of ND injuries in the military and LE in which the WML was believed to be a contributing factor due to the position of the controls and sympathetic response of the firing hand.
If you are going to use a WML, use one with a grip activated switch and not one which you operate with the fingers of your off-hand.
Personally, I do not use a WML on my pistol at work but I do have one on my home defense gun, since one of my primary responsibilities will be shuttling two small children to our safe room but I still use a handheld in conjunction as my primary light until the WML is needed.
My rationale for not using one at work is multi-fold:
I believe the Safariland 070 to be the best combination of attributes for a patrol duty holster and they do not make one that allows a WML.
I use a hand-held for almost all searching tasks and if I thought a WML would be the better choice, it is likely that a long gun would be called for i.e. school or hospital and I have WML's on my long guns.
As far as other tasks i.e. vehicle takedowns, large group searches, etc. I tend to rely on ambient light since I work in an urban environment and have no trouble identifying or shooting under those circumstances, although I have no grievance with WML's under these circumstances and if I used one, I might use it under these circumstances.
Unlike many others, I try to minimize the use of light at work when feasible but rely on a handheld when I cannot.
I do not believe that WML's are bad per se; I just believe that most people's rationale for their use is misplaced and most would benefit from some low light FOF in order to make a more informed decision about whether they prefer a handheld or WML.
I will be hosting Southnarc's Armed Movement in Structures class in Tulsa sometime in the spring so I would suggest availing yourself of some training that might answer some of these questions for you.
Some other sources of this training are:
The Surefire Institute
Insights Training
Strategos International (the gold standard in this area)
Khyber Interactive Associates
USSA
All of these groups do actual structure clearing work in FOF, not just shooting at paper targets in low light.
Pick one that interests you and leave your mind open when you train.
Michael Brown
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