Selling AR-15 pistols with a stabilizing brace

[mightymouse]

What he is saying is the rule that is turning AR pistols is their "new rule", it's not a law. Yet.

Wrong. ATF final rule 2021R-08F classifies AR style pistols with a brace as SBRs. SBRs are also NFA firearms, and NFA firearms have been regulated by the federal government since the National Firearms Act of 1934. The law prohibiting the transfer of unregistered NFA weapons can be found here, Chapter 9, section 9.2 of the National Firearms Act handbook:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-9/download

 

[Tinytim]

Tim, with all due respect, sir, I'm afraid you're missing the point. ATF final rule 2021R-08F classifies AR-15 style pistols with braces as short-barreled rifles (SBRs). Short-barreled rifles (SBRs), short-barreled shotguns (SBSs), Any Other Weapon (AOW), and machine guns all fall under the purview of the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA for short). So, say a guy gets busted for trying to sell an unregistered SBR. He could be charged with violating NFA laws prohibiting the transfer of an unregistered NFA firearm. And I can assure you, NFA laws are very real.

Mighty mouse, thanks for the reply, I was just pointing it out that violating a rule is not the same as violating a law, but if the feds want you, they can arrest you, I was present in fed court and listened as the judge said “if you aren’t guilty why did the federal agent arrest you?”
I really hope a federal judge /Supreme Court stops this.

 

[Perplexed]

The brace itself is not illegal, but the combination of it and a short barrel makes it an unregistered SBR.

This, after 10+ years and two official letters saying the combo was fine. So the ATF will be raked over the legal coals because of this, and deservedly so. Back-room politics should not be a reason for the extension and redefinition of the rules, only law.

 

[Shadowrider]

...I was just pointing it out that violating a rule is not the same as violating a law...

These rules carry the full weight of law. They are made up by unelected officials and not elected lawmakers. In a federal court there's no difference at all in a legal sense. That's what makes them so onerous.

 

[mightymouse]

Mighty mouse, thanks for the reply, I was just pointing it out that violating a rule is not the same as violating a law....
I really hope a federal judge /Supreme Court stops this.

Tim, what I'm trying to convey is this: Say a guy gets busted for transferring an unregistered SBR (aka, an AR style pistol with a brace). He is not going to be charged with violating a rule, but he could be charged with violating the law that prohibits the transfer of an unregistered SBR. See that prohibition here, in the National Firearms Act handbook, Chapter 9, sections 9.1 and 9.2:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-9/download

A federal judge or the Supreme Court could invalidate the rule that makes AR-15 style pistols with a brace into SBRs, but I doubt they will overturn the federal prohibitions against the transfer of unregistered NFA firearms. Those have stood for decades.

 

[mightymouse]

This, after 10+ years and two official letters saying the combo was fine.

Perplexed, if you would like some background on the decision to approve the initial "prototype" arm brace submitted to the ATF for approval some 10 years ago, follow the link below. Scroll down to the section marked "Related Resources", and click on "PowerPoint Training on Final Rule 2021R-08F". Scan through the first couple of pages, then on Page 3 you will see the initial submission. It looks nothing like today's "tactical braces".
Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached “Stabilizing Braces” | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

 

[Perplexed]

Perplexed, if you would like some background on the decision to approve the initial "prototype" arm brace submitted to the ATF for approval some 10 years ago, follow the link below. Scroll down to the section marked "Related Resources", and click on "PowerPoint Training on Final Rule 2021R-08F". Scan through the first couple of pages, then on Page 3 you will see the initial submission. It looks nothing like today's "tactical braces".
Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached “Stabilizing Braces” | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

“Looks nothing like“ is a well-defined criteria for determining the legality of a brace per the twice-confirmed acceptance of braces on AR pistols? If so, then that means the ATF is free to call any firearm or accessory they come across anything they like, because it “looks nothing like” other firearms or accessories. The rules were set in place for a reason; if the ATF is allowed to weasel around the definitions of the rules because they don’t like the way something looks, then we’re well and truly screwed.

 

[mightymouse]

“Looks nothing like“ is a well-defined criteria for determining the legality of a brace per the twice-confirmed acceptance of braces on AR pistols? If so, then that means the ATF is free to call any firearm or accessory they come across anything they like, because it “looks nothing like” other firearms or accessories. The rules were set in place for a reason; if the ATF is allowed to weasel around the definitions of the rules because they don’t like the way something looks, then we’re well and truly screwed.

All I asked was that you look at the link I posted. If not, all's fine. I am trying, in this thread, to shed some light on the recent ATF decision. I'm not here to debate the legality of it, the morality of it, the reasonableness of it, or the sanity of it.

 

[08H3]

Nice this is, if it’s a ar pistol, take the brace of and it’s not a NFA item and as long as you don’t register it, then sell it as you want or keep it it’s that simple. We were shooting the damn things for years without braces before they came into play.

BTW, walking through the gun show today, still lots of guys selling braced pistols or trying to anyway. But not a lot of braces.

 

[mightymouse]

Nice this is, if it’s a ar pistol, take the brace of and it’s not a NFA item and as long as you don’t register it, then sell it as you want or keep it it’s that simple. We were shooting the damn things for years without braces before they came into play.

BTW, walking through the gun show today, still lots of guys selling braced pistols or trying to anyway. But not a lot of braces.

If you take the brace off permanently, it is just an AR pistol again and you do not have to register anything. Shoot it, buy, sell, trade, or whatever, it's just a pistol.