I think you want to take an extremely complex and probably multifactorial issue and point to a convenient scapegoat. But hey, what do I know, right? Not like I deal with this **** every day or anything. lol
I think you want to take an extremely complex and probably multifactorial issue and point to a convenient scapegoat. But hey, what do I know, right? Not like I deal with this **** every day or anything. lol
Followup: the FBI has now officially admitted it screwed up in this case:
FBI Statement on the Shooting in Parkland, Florida
On January 5, 2018, a person close to Nikolas Cruz contacted the FBI’s Public Access Line (PAL) tipline to report concerns about him. The caller provided information about Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting.
Under established protocols, the information provided by the caller should have been assessed as a potential threat to life. The information then should have been forwarded to the FBI Miami Field Office, where appropriate investigative steps would have been taken.
We have determined that these protocols were not followed for the information received by the PAL on January 5. The information was not provided to the Miami Field Office, and no further investigation was conducted at that time.
FBI Director Christopher Wray said:
“We are still investigating the facts. I am committed to getting to the bottom of what happened in this particular matter, as well as reviewing our processes for responding to information that we receive from the public. It’s up to all Americans to be vigilant, and when members of the public contact us with concerns, we must act properly and quickly.
“We have spoken with victims and families, and deeply regret the additional pain this causes all those affected by this horrific tragedy. All of the men and women of the FBI are dedicated to keeping the American people safe, and are relentlessly committed to improving all that we do and how we do it.”
On January 5, 2018, a person close to Nikolas Cruz contacted the FBI’s Public Access Line (PAL) tipline to report concerns about him. The caller provided information about Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting.
Under established protocols, the information provided by the caller should have been assessed as a potential threat to life. The information then should have been forwarded to the FBI Miami Field Office, where appropriate investigative steps would have been taken.
We have determined that these protocols were not followed for the information received by the PAL on January 5. The information was not provided to the Miami Field Office, and no further investigation was conducted at that time.
FBI Director Christopher Wray said:
“We are still investigating the facts. I am committed to getting to the bottom of what happened in this particular matter, as well as reviewing our processes for responding to information that we receive from the public. It’s up to all Americans to be vigilant, and when members of the public contact us with concerns, we must act properly and quickly.
“We have spoken with victims and families, and deeply regret the additional pain this causes all those affected by this horrific tragedy. All of the men and women of the FBI are dedicated to keeping the American people safe, and are relentlessly committed to improving all that we do and how we do it.”
https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...-the-shooting-in-parkland-florida/layout_view
I think you're overanalyzing it. They're not choosing gun-free zones, choosing victims to draw maximum emotion, they're choosing a setting and victims prominent in their lives. When adults go on a shooting spree, they often do it at their workplaces, and for precisely the same reasons. Others do it at churches or other venues, by whom they feel somehow wronged (even if the "wrong" is merely existence, as with some of the racial shootings). The Las Vegas shooting, I'll grant that it was a careful, deliberate selection, but that's not typical; the school shooters are generally shooting up their own schools. If they wanted maximum impact, they'd be going to elementary schools (Adam Lanza notwithstanding, but again, he's the exception, not the rule).
Wray needs to resign on this debacle. We've had case after case where the FBI has dropped the ball. Time to hold some people accountable.
Not just the FBI, but law enforcement in general. To wit: Sandy Hook.Wray needs to resign on this debacle. We've had case after case where the FBI has dropped the ball. Time to hold some people accountable.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sandy-hook-shooting-investigation-fbi-documents/
FBI: Police were told Sandy Hook shooter threatened to kill mom, students
Last Updated Oct 24, 2017 11:13 PM EDT
NEWTOWN, Conn. -- Police were warned that the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooter had threatened to kill his mother and students before the 2012 massacre, according to newly revealed FBI documents.
The agency on Tuesday released more than 1,500 pages documents on the investigation into the mass shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, that left 26 children and teachers dead.
Many of the documents had large sections redacted and included reports by agents who interviewed people about shooter Adam Lanza, who killed himself as police arrived at the school.
One woman told investigators that she overheard Adam Lanza threaten his mother. She said that he "had an assault weapon and that she was scared of him." She said she overheard Lanza say that he "planned to kill his mother and children at Sandy Hook in Newtown, Connecticut."
According to investigators' interview notes, she said she called Newtown police and Sandy Hook and told them about the threats, but police said Lanza's mother owned the firearms and there was nothing they could do; they were told to call state police.
An unidentified person told an agent that Adam Lanza's mother, Nancy Lanza, was concerned about him a month before the shooting because he had become a "shut in" who hadn't gone anywhere in three months. On the day of the massacre, Adam Lanza fatally shot his mother before going to the school.
The person also told the FBI agent that Adam Lanza never accepted that he had Asperger's syndrome, a condition on the autism spectrum, and never took any medication he was prescribed.
"Nancy would take care of all of Adam's needs," the person said. "However, she never cleaned his room, nor was allowed in his room. Adam's room was his personal space that no one else was allowed into."
A report by the Connecticut Office of the Child Advocate in 2014 concluded that Adam Lanza's autism spectrum disorder and other psychiatric problems did not cause or lead directly to the massacre. The report said Nancy Lanza rejected recommendations from Yale psychologists that her son be medicated and undergo rigorous treatment as a child for anxiety and other conditions. It also said Adam Lanza, his parents and educators contributed to his social isolation by not confronting his problems.
In the FBI documents, one person told investigators that Adam Lanza essentially had become a "recluse" who shut himself in his bedroom and played video games all day. The person said Lanza had no friends, was computer savvy and became very interested in firearms.
An unidentified woman said she was in contact with Lanza for more than two years on a gaming website dedicated to the 1999 Columbine High School shootings. She told investigators that Lanza kept a "spreadsheet, meticulously documenting the details of hundreds of spree killings and mass murders".
She described him as "depressed" and "isolated" and someone who viewed death as an "escape from his joyless existence."
Another person interviewed said Nancy Lanza told them her son hacked "into a government computer system" and federal agents showed up to their home. They said Nancy Lanza believed the agents were from the CIA and FBI and they said if her son was smart enough to hack the computer he could have a job with them someday.
Several residents told authorities they received death threats after the shooting in phone calls from someone identifying himself as Adam Lanza.
"There are a lot of mentally ill people that are actively seeking to copycat these types of situations," former FBI agent Manny Gomez told CBS News correspondent Anna Werner. "It's going to happen again if people do not step up and try to identify the next Adam Lanza."
Lanza shot the children and educators with an AR-15-style rifle that was legally purchased by his mother, who took her son to shooting ranges, authorities have said.
Last Updated Oct 24, 2017 11:13 PM EDT
NEWTOWN, Conn. -- Police were warned that the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooter had threatened to kill his mother and students before the 2012 massacre, according to newly revealed FBI documents.
The agency on Tuesday released more than 1,500 pages documents on the investigation into the mass shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, that left 26 children and teachers dead.
Many of the documents had large sections redacted and included reports by agents who interviewed people about shooter Adam Lanza, who killed himself as police arrived at the school.
One woman told investigators that she overheard Adam Lanza threaten his mother. She said that he "had an assault weapon and that she was scared of him." She said she overheard Lanza say that he "planned to kill his mother and children at Sandy Hook in Newtown, Connecticut."
According to investigators' interview notes, she said she called Newtown police and Sandy Hook and told them about the threats, but police said Lanza's mother owned the firearms and there was nothing they could do; they were told to call state police.
An unidentified person told an agent that Adam Lanza's mother, Nancy Lanza, was concerned about him a month before the shooting because he had become a "shut in" who hadn't gone anywhere in three months. On the day of the massacre, Adam Lanza fatally shot his mother before going to the school.
The person also told the FBI agent that Adam Lanza never accepted that he had Asperger's syndrome, a condition on the autism spectrum, and never took any medication he was prescribed.
"Nancy would take care of all of Adam's needs," the person said. "However, she never cleaned his room, nor was allowed in his room. Adam's room was his personal space that no one else was allowed into."
A report by the Connecticut Office of the Child Advocate in 2014 concluded that Adam Lanza's autism spectrum disorder and other psychiatric problems did not cause or lead directly to the massacre. The report said Nancy Lanza rejected recommendations from Yale psychologists that her son be medicated and undergo rigorous treatment as a child for anxiety and other conditions. It also said Adam Lanza, his parents and educators contributed to his social isolation by not confronting his problems.
In the FBI documents, one person told investigators that Adam Lanza essentially had become a "recluse" who shut himself in his bedroom and played video games all day. The person said Lanza had no friends, was computer savvy and became very interested in firearms.
An unidentified woman said she was in contact with Lanza for more than two years on a gaming website dedicated to the 1999 Columbine High School shootings. She told investigators that Lanza kept a "spreadsheet, meticulously documenting the details of hundreds of spree killings and mass murders".
She described him as "depressed" and "isolated" and someone who viewed death as an "escape from his joyless existence."
Another person interviewed said Nancy Lanza told them her son hacked "into a government computer system" and federal agents showed up to their home. They said Nancy Lanza believed the agents were from the CIA and FBI and they said if her son was smart enough to hack the computer he could have a job with them someday.
Several residents told authorities they received death threats after the shooting in phone calls from someone identifying himself as Adam Lanza.
"There are a lot of mentally ill people that are actively seeking to copycat these types of situations," former FBI agent Manny Gomez told CBS News correspondent Anna Werner. "It's going to happen again if people do not step up and try to identify the next Adam Lanza."
Lanza shot the children and educators with an AR-15-style rifle that was legally purchased by his mother, who took her son to shooting ranges, authorities have said.
The three dozen 911 calls in the current shooting have already been mentioned; the USAF's failure in the Texas case is well-known. And the solution to law enforcement not enforcing the law is more law? To that, I don't think I can respond more eloquently than Charles Babbage: "I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a [suggestion]."
No, I understand that it is complex. I'm saying there is one thing in particular that appears to correlate strongly, and warrants investigation.
Are you saying we should just ignore it?
But *HOW* you address it is relevant.
If you want to blame the gun, there are a lot of people that disagree.
Are there other ways to deal with this? if so, then the 'gun' isn't the only option.
If you want to blame the gun, there are a lot of people that disagree.
Are there other ways to deal with this? if so, then the 'gun' isn't the only option.
If these mass shooters really wanted to rack up a body count, there are better ways that using guns.
He could probably have killed more with a car driving into a crowd.
Something about popular culture and the glamorization of guns in media should be included here.
He could probably have killed more with a car driving into a crowd.
Something about popular culture and the glamorization of guns in media should be included here.
Correlation does not imply causation.
Again.... 80 million people on antidepressants harmed NO ONE today. Just like gun owners. We know without a doubt, factually, from hundreds and hundreds of peer-reviewed studies in journals across the globe, over the course of decades of research, and MOST IMPORTANTLY... with REPEATABLE RESULTS... that these classes of medicines are helpful overall in the treatment of mental illness.
You can scapegoat them all you like. You can correlate the fact that each of these shooters drank from public water sources (gasp!), ate processed foods filled with hormones and chemicals (say it ain't so!), or any other facet of their daily lives, and that doesn't mean that was the cause. Or the sole cause. Or part of the cause.
Are there people who fall through the cracks? Absolutely. Are there people who respond poorly? Sure. Are there people who stop taking their meds, who abuse their meds, who don't follow up with their providers, who use drugs or alcohol while on these meds, whatever. Sure. Does that make it the fault of the meds?
How about your grandpa who still had a heart attack while taking his blood pressure and cholesterol meds? Time to blame those meds, take them off the market and publicly flog the drug companies and bankrupt them with lawsuits? Did grandpa continue to smoke? Did those meds reverse the damage done to the intimal walls of his blood vessels over years of gorging on fast food and BBQ? Damn, man... how many people in this country who die from heart disease were on these meds???? Jeez, not only were they not effective in making them immortal, they might have actually KILLED THEM! Ok...
I see this ******** all the time... everyone points out that these murderers were on psych meds. Well, maybe because THEY FREAKING NEEDED TO BE?????
Let me ask you... you ever personally been kicked, punched, spit on, beaten, pissed on, verbally abused or threatened by someone who stopped their psych meds? Or was using them inappropriately, or with other drugs or alcohol? Because I have. Dozens of time. Hundreds of times. Personally. Me, in my daily life. I deal with crazy psych people constantly. Do you? I've got a bit of experience in over 20 years dealing with this stuff up close and personal. I've had people I have turned over the police MULTIPLE times, telling them every time they were a danger to themselves and to society, who then ended up dead from suicide, from overdose or drug abuse, and even - yes, for real - even at the hands of the police. It's not rocket science. I've even had them end up dead directly from medications I personally gave them (again, when they abused them). Is that my fault? Is that the meds' fault? You tell me.... whose fault is it??
Medications can have side effects. Yes. We know this. It's not a reason to vilify them and throw the baby out with the bath water. They do much more good than harm. Most of our drugs on the market do. You want to take all those meds away, see how f***ing crazy our society goes? America has lost the capability to function as a normal society without outside aids, for lots of reasons. There are social reasons. Religious reasons. Family reasons. Monetary, electronic and global pressures that all contribute.
Again... correlation does not imply causation. If these people were on psych meds, maybe THEY NEEDED TO BE. Maybe they needed MORE. Maybe they needed different ones. Who knows... but like I said, trying to vilify an entire class of PROVEN helpful meds because of a few "bad apples" is no different than blaming guns for being present as part of the problem.
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