Little bit of an eye opener

[twoguns?]

Just my opinion, you are entitled to yours, I am entitled to mine. If you are going to place the responsibility to protect students via firearms on a teachers shoulders then they should have the same training as an armed guard at a minimum. I can argue the 80%+ of the people that currently carry are incapable of actually using the gun to protect themselves, let alone others, and do so without causing collateral damage.

How do you propose the weapons are secured amongst the students? I'm assuming you have been in a public middle and high school lately? They can't manage the behavior of the students very well(due to the parents), I don't see where having guns available to be absconded with is a good thing.

"my opinion"

And there have been 3 incidents Lately by LEO's ,Why cant we all have the same training?

.My opinion is ...train them if they want training.
What difference would there be if teachers were armed and trained , compared to LEO that is armed in a crowd?

. See ,the rest of my opinion is everyone can say why it wont work , but Noone can say what will work.

.Obviously its Not working Now

 

[Shoot Summ]

Had someone at SandyHook had a weapon or had they placed an armed guard at the entrance, I am almost certain it would have been a different outcome.

We hope it would have, but is there really any proof that it would?

Teachers in Utah have been carrying for more than a decade with NO incidents.

Good information, any info on how many times guns were required or used to stop an issue?

Who is going to pay for all that added security? You?



Ever heard of the Federal Flight Deck Officer Program? Do you know how it works? Interested individual commercial ATP pilots apply for the program, are vetted, pay for their training out of pocket, travel to the training location and take the training on their own time and their own dime, and when it's completed, they hand them a Federal Officer badge that gives them a strictly and narrowly defined authority, a jurisdiction (the cockpit of the aircraft) and a gun, ammo and safe storage items.

If a commercial pilot can fly an airplane and provide their own armed security, I don't see why a teacher or administrator couldn't teach and do the same. Unless of course you don't think they're smart enough for it. Just my opinion of course!

As for the current Oklahoma law and the "working group" at the capitol, the writing was on the wall when I saw who was on the committee. However, I have yet to see a single thing in the Oklahoma Statutes that would prohibit a school district from having armed faculty. Our state law mimics the federal GFSZA almost to the letter. The same GFSZA that applies to the school district in Texas that has armed faculty.

I say let the individual districts decide what works for them and what doesn't. We don't need an additional state law that "allows" it.

Just like we already pay for added security in many places, TSA is a prime example.

I didn't know about the Flight Deck Officer program, sounds like a great program, I could support carry by Teachers if that were a requirement. I've been through the SDA though and if that is the only requirement I have a hard time saying that qualifies them to carry(or anyone for that matter).

Unfortunately these days you can't categorize any single group of people(Teachers, Pilots, etc) as smart ENOUGH, or NOT smart ENOUGH, there are many in the group that are, and there are some that aren't. What's worse is there are some that aren't that don't realize it.

What is your solution to the problem then? I keep asking the same question and no one has an answer. The problem is we all want to protect our rights, and protect our families, but we don't seem to be able to produce a solid foundation for why our rights shouldn't be infringed. The other side is spinning this to show how all guns are bad and evil, and all we come up with is it's our right. We are losing this fight...

(reminder, please try to keep this a civil discussion)

 

[mbalexander]

WOW, great discussion. Civil & on topic
Maybe someone could "lobby" the right person on 23rd & Lincoln about the Federal Flight Deck Officers program.

 

[Shoot Summ]

And there have been 3 incidents Lately by LEO's ,Why cant we all have the same training?

.My opinion is ...train them if they want training.
What difference would there be if teachers were armed and trained , compared to LEO that is armed in a crowd?

. See ,the rest of my opinion is everyone can say why it wont work , but Noone can say what will work.

.Obviously its Not working Now

The other side uses those incidents blindly against our fight, at a high level it looks like "see, even those that are "highly trained" make mistakes". The reality is though that LEO are much more likely to be in a situation to use their weapon than the average person, but that doesn't come out, only the negative spin...

 

[OKCHunter]

....What is your solution to the problem then? I keep asking the same question and no one has an answer. The problem is we all want to protect our rights, and protect our families, but we don't seem to be able to produce a solid foundation for why our rights shouldn't be infringed. The other side is spinning this to show how all guns are bad and evil, and all we come up with is it's our right. We are losing this fight...

(reminder, please try to keep this a civil discussion)

I believe the answer has more to do with the culture and society that we have developed, not the tools (firearms in many instances) that people use to commit horrible acts. It seems to me there is a much higher level of immorality and violence in our society today. For example, video games, television, movies are much more violent than I remember as a kid. This must have a "numbing" effect on children which results in less respect for human life. Also, many parents protect kids from failure instead of teaching them how to rebound from failure - why does every kid get a trophy when they compete in a sport? In addition, many children never learn accountabilty for thier actions which results in lack of responsibility - read unruly and undisciplined kids.

Put all this togather - no respect for human life, no ability to deal with failure, and lack of accountability creates a potential monster. The solution is to change our culture which begins with parents and thier children. Monitor and regulate what they are exposed to, teach them how to turn a failure into success (keep trying until you succeed), and teach them discipline. Just my opinion.

 

[Buzzgun]

I recently had this discussion with a teacher who is not anti gun, but doesn't want armed teachers in the classroom. She made very good points, specifically, that she wasn't confident that many of the teachers she works with were responsible enough to handle firearms in a classroom, and, that she was concerned about students taking guns from teachers and using them if teachers carried guns on their person.....I agree with her concerns.

I told her that the proposed bill required extensive training that, hopefully, would weed out those who are not responsible enough to carry in a classroom. Secondly, I suggested that the law could require that guns be stored in a biometric gun safe (pictured below) which requires a specific fingerprint to open. I know these "safes" aren't foolproof, but they may be the best option at this point.

 

[LightningCrash]

We hope it would have, but is there really any proof that it would?

A gun is not a talisman, but are you really asserting that a trained person with firearms in an SD scenario is no better off than an untrained person with no firearms?

What is your solution to the problem then?
You keep asking the same questions to derail the thread, and you have no answers.

 

[Shoot Summ]

I believe the answer has more to do with the culture and society that we have developed, not the tools (firearms in many instances) that people use to commit horrible acts. It seems to me there is a much higher level of immorality and violence in our society today. For example, video games, television, movies are much more violent than I remember as a kid. This must have a "numbing" effect on children which results in less respect for human life. Also, many parents protect kids from failure instead of teaching them how to rebound from failure - why does every kid get a trophy when they compete in a sport? In addition, many children never learn accountabilty for thier actions which results in lack of responsibility - read unruly and undisciplined kids.

Put all this togather - no respect for human life, no ability to deal with failure, and lack of accountability creates a potential monster. The solution is to change our culture which begins with parents and thier children. Monitor and regulate what they are exposed to, teach them how to turn a failure into success (keep trying until you succeed), and teach them discipline. Just my opinion.

I am 100% with you on this one, but will tell you that I have been attacked on this board when I mentioned violent video games as a source of the numbing to violence, not everyone has that opinion. It's hard to say all parents aren't doing their jobs, but it is obvious that the ones that aren't are having a huge impact on the rest of us.

 

[Shoot Summ]

A gun is not a talisman, but are you really asserting that a trained person with firearms in an SD scenario is no better off than an untrained person with no firearms?

What is your solution to the problem then?
You keep asking the same questions to derail the thread, and you have no answers.

No I am asking for proof that it would have made a difference, we all believe it would have, but the anti-gun folks don't.

I don't know the solution, but I don't hear it coming from anyone else either, and I know that with no solution the opposition will take the easiest path. I'm not derailing the thread, I'm trying to get folks to think about what we can do, and produce lucid, credible arguments. The "it's my right" argument isn't working(IMO), people are more concerned about their right to marry their life partner it seems...

 

[Old Fart]

I posted this little bit of info back when this all started and feel it bears reposting.

770 school districts in the state.
I'll guess maybe 3500 actual school buildings.
One armed (1) security guard per school would run in the neighborhood of $105,000,000.00 at $30,00.00 per year per guard.
You see that flying in today's economy?