Little bit of an eye opener

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Most employers do not allow employees to carry at work, I see no reason why a school would be any different. Sorry, I want teachers to teach, hire security to protect the kids and the teachers.

Just my .02...
I want teachers to teach as well but I also want my son to be protected. Why shouldn't a teacher have the right to protect their students? What makes then any different from us? I went to school to be a teacher and have a handgun license. Am I all of the sudden not qualified to protect myself and others?? Just because they are teachers don't mean that they aren't capable of protecting children. Would you rather have a gun free zone than for teachers to carry? I sure as H wouldn't.
 

Danwm

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Just a dumb though guys, If we pull our troops out of countries we don'n need to be in ( Afghanistan, Iraq,etc. ) then we have trained armed guards that are alredy on the governments payroll., Let them guard the schools for their tour of duty, then move the next trained guard in place. Our guys would be alot safer and we would have the protection we need for our schools. Just a though
 
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I posted this little bit of info back when this all started and feel it bears reposting.

770 school districts in the state.
I'll guess maybe 3500 actual school buildings.
One armed (1) security guard per school would run in the neighborhood of $105,000,000.00 at $30,00.00 per year per guard.
You see that flying in today's economy?

According to this page there are 532 districts, not sure how to interpret the "1812 public schools" on the page.

http://teaching.about.com/od/ProfilesInEducation/a/Oklahoma-Education.htm

Using the same approach and the info from that page there are 42,615 teachers, if you use $250 per teacher for training you get almost the same $105 million, difference is it is a one time cost versus ongoing.

Good numbers, I honestly hadn't calculated the cost of adding a guard.
 
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I want teachers to teach as well but I also want my son to be protected. Why shouldn't a teacher have the right to protect their students? What makes then any different from us? I went to school to be a teacher and have a handgun license. Am I all of the sudden not qualified to protect myself and others?? Just because they are teachers don't mean that they aren't capable of protecting children. Would you rather have a gun free zone than for teachers to carry? I sure as H wouldn't.

Just so you know, when you ask questions back to back it is antagonistic, we are trying to keep this as a civil discussion, I understand we are all passionate about protecting our loved ones.

So I will give you the counter points, not mine, but very easily called out.

Why shouldn't a teacher have the right to protect their students?

What makes them qualified to protect their students?

What makes then any different from us?

Let me start with, they are Teachers, god bless them for what they do. The answer is nothing, I don't have the right to protect someone else that is not my family do I?

I went to school to be a teacher and have a handgun license. Am I all of the sudden not qualified to protect myself and others?

I have an Oklahoma CHL as well, doesn't qualify me for anything, means I have passed a safety course and I am allowed to carry a firearm. Doesn't mean I know how to use it, nor does it mean I can protect others that aren't my family.(This is not meant to diminish the efforts of some GREAT SDA instructors that go way above and beyond what is "required")

Just because they are teachers don't mean that they aren't capable of protecting children.

And just because they are doesn't mean that they are capable of protecting children, although we have seen some incredibly heroic acts by some.

Would you rather have a gun free zone than for teachers to carry?

I don't have the solution, although I can say I am not warm to Teachers carrying, my opinion, I do respect and understand yours. I do like what Buzzgun posted.
 

rawhide

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Your response to my post
Teachers in Utah have been carrying for more than a decade with NO incident

was
Good information, any info on how many times guns were required or used to stop an issue?

My research is not, at this point, in great detail. But, I have done online searches and read Dave Kopel's extensive research on "Pretend Gun-Free Zones." I have also made contact with an official from the Utah Shooting Sports Council and will pursue more research as time allows.

The best answer I can give at this time is that, with information that I have seen in regard to teachers carrying in Utah since 2001, is that it appears there been NO incidents of teachers going postal, threatening students, injuring students, presenting a firearm in a non-life threatening incident, or losing control of their firearm. And more importantly, despite the presence of more, not less, firearms, there have been NO students, teachers, or parents injured with a firearm on a school campus. If I'm wrong please present the evidence. Therefore, logic would follow that there have been no incidents when a teacher with "guns were required or used to stop an issue."

(Utah college students are also allowed to conceal carry.)
 

rawhide

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What makes them qualified to protect their students?
Rights do not come with qualifications.


Let me start with, they are Teachers, god bless them for what they do. The answer is nothing, I don't have the right to protect someone else that is not my family do I? But they certainly have the right to protect themselves. They also do have a moral and legal responsibility to protect those children in their care.



I have an Oklahoma CHL as well, doesn't qualify me for anything, means I have passed a safety course and I am allowed to carry a firearm. Doesn't mean I know how to use it, nor does it mean I can protect others that aren't my family.(This is not meant to diminish the efforts of some GREAT SDA instructors that go way above and beyond what is "required") You are absolutely correct. Having the license doesn't make one more or less qualified. But keeping responsible citizens from being able to defend themselves and those in their immediate care does make it less likely that they will be able to protect them.

Bold responses are mine.
 
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We hope it would have, but is there really any proof that it would?

Good information, any info on how many times guns were required or used to stop an issue?

Just like we already pay for added security in many places, TSA is a prime example.

I didn't know about the Flight Deck Officer program, sounds like a great program, I could support carry by Teachers if that were a requirement. I've been through the SDA though and if that is the only requirement I have a hard time saying that qualifies them to carry(or anyone for that matter).

Unfortunately these days you can't categorize any single group of people(Teachers, Pilots, etc.) as smart ENOUGH, or NOT smart ENOUGH, there are many in the group that are, and there are some that aren't. What's worse is there are some that aren't that don't realize it.

What is your solution to the problem then? I keep asking the same question and no one has an answer. The problem is we all want to protect our rights, and protect our families, but we don't seem to be able to produce a solid foundation for why our rights shouldn't be infringed. The other side is spinning this to show how all guns are bad and evil, and all we come up with is it's our right. We are losing this fight...

(reminder, please try to keep this a civil discussion)

While my questions were pointed, I fail to see how they might have been uncivil. Perhaps your end statement was simply a reminder to keep emotion out of the debate. If that's the case, I agree.

TSA security is paid for through Passenger Security Fees of a flat $5 per initial enplanement. In that case, all school security fees would be paid by parents on a per child basis. I doubt that would sit very well at the local PTA meetings.

There are plenty of examples where armed citizens have stopped potential mass killings. Sadly, the news media minimizes these stories and maximizes the ones where an armed person on scene was not available. No one can prove a negative. You can't prove how many hijackings have been prevented by TSA security measures, all you can prove is that there have been no successful attacks in the U.S. since 9-11. Correlation does not imply causation and all that.

As for training and capability, I for one feel that a SDA permit isn't enough training, but a full CLEET law enforcement course is too much. The reason for my opinion is not based on an inability to stop a threat, but because we only have once chance to get this right. Any failure point would cause the entire initiative to collapse. A completely untrained individual could probably pick up a loaded revolver and stop an attacker at 3-5 feet. I could probably stop an attacker at a significantly greater distance. If I remember my Ayoob Files correctly, there was an officer that stopped an attack on a citizen with his issued sidearm at over 70 yards. Just last year, a Texas resident saved the life of an officer who was pinned down by an assailant with an AR in a trailer park. He used a .357 Magnum revolver to shoot the suspect at a range of about 50 yards. There's no indication that the citizen had any special training.

It all comes down to the scenario. In a school setting, the range would probably be close and an armed faculty member would likely be able to get a clear line of fire. Statistically, active shooters self-terminate upon contact with any armed responder. This is a matter of live saved in seconds, not minutes.

Most people don't understand effective security for armed response in a public setting. El-Al does. In 2002, an armed attacker hit the El-Al ticket counter at LAX, killing two and wounding three before he was killed by an armed, UNDERCOVER security agent. Effective security layering for armed response should include armed undercover agents that are only known to administration, security and law enforcement. As a matter of policy, you never reveal how many armed undercover agents you have in place. It’s best to let the public’s imagination run wild on the topic. This provides a threat deterrent that far outweighs all other measures, because you’ll never know in advance who is the armed responder. This is a classic application of OPSEC. Is it two? Twenty? Who knows? The attacker certainly won’t, which will cause most to avoid attacking a facility that’s known to be protected in that fashion.

As a security professional for over 25 years, I have a little bit of expertise on the subject. I teach Active Shooter Prevention, Mitigation and Response to the public. As a matter of fact, I just did a presentation to a local governmental consortium with over 50 employees last week. An effective and robust plan will incorporate a great deal more countermeasures than just armed employees and/or security. I have a well-documented historical reference on active shooter response since the Charles Whitman massacre in 1966. We’ve evolved our strategies a dozen times over in the intervening years, yet we still have school massacres to this day. The Israelis are experts on the subject and for good reason. They passed the threshold where ineffective measures were acceptable long ago. Sadly, many dozens of dead kids and young adults across the country over the past 45+ years has not put the United States over that threshold. The question is, how many will it take? :(
 
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Just a dumb though guys, If we pull our troops out of countries we don'n need to be in ( Afghanistan, Iraq,etc. ) then we have trained armed guards that are alredy on the governments payroll., Let them guard the schools for their tour of duty, then move the next trained guard in place. Our guys would be alot safer and we would have the protection we need for our schools. Just a though

The Posse Comitatus Act is the United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) that was passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction and was updated in 1981. Its intent (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) was to limit the powers of Federal government in using federal military personnel to enforce the State laws. Contrary to popular belief, the Act does not prohibit members of the United States Armed Forces from exercising Law enforcement agency powers within a State, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order"; it requires that any authority to do so must exist within the United States Constitution or Act of Congress (which it currently does not except under the Insurrection Act).{Federalist 29 (Hamilton, 1788)} Any use of the Armed Forces under either Title 10/Active Duty or Title 10/Reserves at the direction of the President will offend the Constitutional Law also known as Public Law prohibiting such action unless declared by the President of the United States and approved by Congress. Any infringement will be problematic for political and legal reasons.
 
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It wasn't directed at you, thanks for the excellent response, and an example of the type of responses we need, factual, articulate, and pointed.

While my questions were pointed, I fail to see how they might have been uncivil. Perhaps your end statement was simply a reminder to keep emotion out of the debate. If that's the case, I agree.

TSA security is paid for through Passenger Security Fees of a flat $5 per initial enplanement. In that case, all school security fees would be paid by parents on a per child basis. I doubt that would sit very well at the local PTA meetings.

There are plenty of examples where armed citizens have stopped potential mass killings. Sadly, the news media minimizes these stories and maximizes the ones where an armed person on scene was not available. No one can prove a negative. You can't prove how many hijackings have been prevented by TSA security measures, all you can prove is that there have been no successful attacks in the U.S. since 9-11. Correlation does not imply causation and all that.

As for training and capability, I for one feel that a SDA permit isn't enough training, but a full CLEET law enforcement course is too much. The reason for my opinion is not based on an inability to stop a threat, but because we only have once chance to get this right. Any failure point would cause the entire initiative to collapse. A completely untrained individual could probably pick up a loaded revolver and stop an attacker at 3-5 feet. I could probably stop an attacker at a significantly greater distance. If I remember my Ayoob Files correctly, there was an officer that stopped an attack on a citizen with his issued sidearm at over 70 yards. Just last year, a Texas resident saved the life of an officer who was pinned down by an assailant with an AR in a trailer park. He used a .357 Magnum revolver to shoot the suspect at a range of about 50 yards. There's no indication that the citizen had any special training.

It all comes down to the scenario. In a school setting, the range would probably be close and an armed faculty member would likely be able to get a clear line of fire. Statistically, active shooters self-terminate upon contact with any armed responder. This is a matter of live saved in seconds, not minutes.

Most people don't understand effective security for armed response in a public setting. El-Al does. In 2002, an armed attacker hit the El-Al ticket counter at LAX, killing two and wounding three before he was killed by an armed, UNDERCOVER security agent. Effective security layering for armed response should include armed undercover agents that are only known to administration, security and law enforcement. As a matter of policy, you never reveal how many armed undercover agents you have in place. It’s best to let the public’s imagination run wild on the topic. This provides a threat deterrent that far outweighs all other measures, because you’ll never know in advance who is the armed responder. This is a classic application of OPSEC. Is it two? Twenty? Who knows? The attacker certainly won’t, which will cause most to avoid attacking a facility that’s known to be protected in that fashion.

As a security professional for over 25 years, I have a little bit of expertise on the subject. I teach Active Shooter Prevention, Mitigation and Response to the public. As a matter of fact, I just did a presentation to a local governmental consortium with over 50 employees last week. An effective and robust plan will incorporate a great deal more countermeasures than just armed employees and/or security. I have a well-documented historical reference on active shooter response since the Charles Whitman massacre in 1966. We’ve evolved our strategies a dozen times over in the intervening years, yet we still have school massacres to this day. The Israelis are experts on the subject and for good reason. They passed the threshold where ineffective measures were acceptable long ago. Sadly, many dozens of dead kids and young adults across the country over the past 45+ years has not put the United States over that threshold. The question is, how many will it take? :(
 

twoguns?

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The other side uses those incidents blindly against our fight, at a high level it looks like "see, even those that are "highly trained" make mistakes". The reality is though that LEO are much more likely to be in a situation to use their weapon than the average person, but that doesn't come out, only the negative spin...

Yeah , Im not using it as an "against" I'm saying why is the training so hard to come by that teachers can't get the Same training , if they wanted .
It's not for everyone, but those that want and can do it should be able to.

I understand it's the employer, insurance ,responsibility, we need to not be so PC and say "if you come to our school's ,theaters , ....etc" and threaten our Familys ...you will be Dealt with.

And yeah the gun craze put a Whole lot of ....not Gun people , out there with guns (its just the cool thing to own a gun).

I believe it's mostly in the PC deal, dont hurt someones feelings....people Should be told ..."your not a gun person" or you a dumbaxx...SshHhhh. .(not intended for you 2-4)

But I can only do that to the people around me , so it's a Good thing to let people know, just because it's that way now , doesnt mean you cant change it.

And for Goodness sake pass the word to keep them guns safe....both of them... ;)
 

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