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Marijuana Disqualification Question To Be Removed From ATF 4473

Discussion in 'Law & Order' started by Timmy59, Apr 1, 2021.

  1. dennishoddy

    dennishoddy Sharpshooter

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    SCOTUS WILL NOT DECIDE THIS. It will take action in congress to legalize MJ recreational or medical before anything changes in the 4473. I see this happening in the future, but front line FFL's cannot speculate, only comply.
     
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  2. JR777

    JR777 Sharpshooter

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    This argument is not applicable to FFLs. If the customer answers yes it's an automatic denial. If they answer no, and you somehow know for a fact that they have a medical card, there's case law protecting you for denying the sale. What the case law says in a nutshell is that it's unclear whether medical users are violating federal law, and therefore an FFL has justifiable reason to believe he would be violating federal law by selling them the gun, and is therefore not violating their constitutional rights. If he doesn't know (and how would he???), and they answer no, it's not his problem.

    You're right, scotus will not decide this, because it will never be brought to trial, because congress has acted to preclude that possibility. For many years running, including when republicans controlled the entire federal government, congress has forbade the justice department from using funds to interfere with any aspect of state medical marijuana programs. Last I checked, the ATF was in fact still part of the justice department, and did in fact receive their funding from congress, and is in fact therefore bound by the same order.

    However, under your hypothetical scenario, scotus would undoubtedly hear the case, because it would be the federal government vs. 33 states and an untold number of other interested parties, and the case would hinge on the very core of states rights and the extent to which the supremacy clause can be applied to supersede state's rights. It would be the landmark case of the century, and its implications would be dire, to the point that a conviction could literally lead to three quarters or more of the states seceding.
     
  3. avtomatkalashnikov47

    avtomatkalashnikov47 Marksman

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    i am surprised no one has mentioned
    SB959, or HB2612.

    i dont like marijuana but i understand it helps some people medically. i know some people who did use it illegally before the decriminalization with the medical laws passing and from what i have seen it did help with these individuals suffering from cancer so i think it gave them some relief from chemo and the radiation.


    that being said, it is kind of strange.

    we passed passing laws legalizing marijuana medically,
    which is still federally illegal.

    but afaik we also did pass or *are in the process* of getting some laws that state something to the effect of just because you have a medical marijuana licence DOES NOT MEAN that you are disqualified from owning a firearm, meaning that - yeah you can basically have a medical card and firearms.

    so again - its like we have 2 laws on the books then that are challenging the federal law.

    FFLS have to report directly at a federal level so regardless of what the state laws say i highly doubt they are going to go against what the federal law states just because the state has laws that says its okay. i mean honestly , its literally in their title. FEDERAL firearms licensed dealer.

    seems like everyone that does partake in this says its a dont ask dont tell type of thing meaning you take the risk lying on the 4473 which is probably the dumbest thing you could do because your risking 10 years, a felony and never being allowed to own a gun at all just for lying on a form - or you just get all the guns you want before you get your medical card and your forced to have to make all future firearm purchases from a individual.

    But - again its still federally illegal. i remember when california was the first state that started to loosen up on MJ and i remember hearing all the time about the feds coming in kicking in peoples houses even though they were legal under the state. F-that.

    people that dabble in this are taking a risk as is, without even having guns in the mix.


    none of this really is of any concern to me at all though, i feel for others. they really need to clarify things.

    but yeah, they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. from what i have seen you can get a MMJ card for just about anything, they give them out super easy.

    i think they personally did that on purpose, so they can bank on people that are all getting the cards, while still prosecuting people for it - taxing the dispensarys oh boy , its still a big cash cow for everybody and relatively victimless crimes like someone smoking a bit on the porch that gets apprehended for not having a piece of paper that is permission.

    good old saying i heard in the firearms community time and time again is free men dont ask. but anyhow thats just my general discontent with the way the system as a whole works and makes crooked laws that only benefit them financially.

    again, i really dont give a flying F about marijuana i like my guns way to much to ever have anything around to jeopardize that.

    but - that said if given the all clear and opportunity id definitely like to grow one of those plants if its ever decriminalized and is fully legal just cause i honestly think its a pretty looking plant. that, and like i mentioned earlier, i had a dying family member who had cancer and i honestly think it had a part in saving their life.

     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2021
  4. dennishoddy

    dennishoddy Sharpshooter

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    I never said SCOTUS would hear the case. I said they never would and posted a historical time line of 10 years easily looked up.
    My statement about local FFL's is not hypothetical. It's the law they have to abide by.
    Once again, your arguing an opinion that does not have case law for backup in a court.
    Your arguing states law vs Federal law which we all know the feds can bully the states into submissions as they historically have.
    The Constitution gives the states great rights in it's original intent but has learned how to get around the rights by being a bully. Withholding funds is their leverage. When the feds said drinking laws must be 21 while a lot of states said if your old enough to join the military, 18 is good, the feds withheld highway and infrastructure funds to bully the states into compliance.
    I don't want to get away from the original content of this thread as I think its really important, but wanted to show how the government can force legislation the states don't want as an example.
     
  5. avtomatkalashnikov47

    avtomatkalashnikov47 Marksman

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    i am just hoping they do not try to pull this with a federal AWB or magazine ban. im pretty sure we passed some sort of amnesty bills that made us a "second amendment santuary state" recently.

    hopefully it does not ever get to that point, but with the current administration it seems like thats what they are set on doing is enforcing more and more gun laws.
     
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  6. dennishoddy

    dennishoddy Sharpshooter

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    Currently there is a bill going through the legislature in OK that makes us a sanctuary state.
    Kay County and some others have already passed this local legislation.
    In reality, it's feel good laws. The federal government holds immense power against the states to force them to do what they want which was not the intent of the founders.
     
  7. JR777

    JR777 Sharpshooter

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  8. rawhide

    rawhide Sharpshooter

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    I don't think the 2A Sanctuary bill (SB631) is an amnesty bill. It has passed the Senate, but I don't think it has had a floor vote in the house yet. You can read it at oklegislature.gov.

    My question for this discussion is does the state of OK report MJ card holders to the feds for the purpose of background checks?
     
  9. JR777

    JR777 Sharpshooter

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    I said you're right, they never will, because it will never be brought to trial, because an act of congress currently makes that impossible. But if congress reversed course and the case was subsequently brought to trial, SCOTUS would absolutely positively have to hear the case, and it would get fast tracked. When you have a landmark states rights case involving supremacy and desuetude, no other court is even qualified. It would be the federal government against 33 states, backed by every lobbyist and high powered attorney in the country. Like I said, you guys don't even begin to appreciate the magnitude of what you're proposing. This does not and cannot exist in a vacuum. If charged, it would be the same as charging all medical marijuana patients and everyone else involved at every level.
     
  10. dennishoddy

    dennishoddy Sharpshooter

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    Here is the bill in its entirety.

    https://legiscan.com/OK/text/SB631/id/2250306
     

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