Where Have All The AR Parts Gone?

[Seadog]

BCM tries to follow the Technical Data Package (TDP) for the AR platform as a military arm. "Mil-Spec" is a meaningless term in the AR market. It's so overly tortured and misused that it's lost all value. Only Colt and FN actually have the TDP, but it's easy to find out what all goes into it. Very few supposed "good" AR manufacturers do this. Colt, FN, Knight's Armament, Daniel Defense and BCM readily come to mind. Upper tier manufacturers like Noveske, Larue, Knight's Armamment, White Oak Armament, JP Rifles, etc., make rifles that don't necessarly follow the TDP, but they meet or exceed it in every respect. As for the BCM, google the "BCM Filthy 14" for an example of why it's considerd so highly.

Companies like Spikes, DPMS, RRA, Bushmaster, Stag, Olympic Arms, Del-Ton, Model 1 Sales, CMMG, etc., take shortcuts in various areas that allow them to hold down costs. That's not necessarily always a bad thing, particularly for the AR hobbyist. However, it's not a good idea for a hard use defense or battle implement. There's a reason you don't see these deployed on the battlefield.

You'll find a lot of hate and angst on the subject, particularly among those that get either butthurt that their's isn't considered top tier, or the elitists who say that any non-top tier AR is an abomination. I prefer to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of the various makes and models, understand what each needs to perform a specific set of functions and plan accordingly. I've owned Olympic, Bushmaster, DPMS, etc. stuff before, but I now own Colt, Noveske and BCM. The others did what I needed them to do at the time, but my expectations are more "rigorous" now.

Hope this helps.

Hi there, could you list some of the shorts cuts in the afore mentioned brands. I dont love one brand more than another but would like to know some of the differances. Thanks

 

[Glocktogo]

Oh no. Not "The Chart". lol

Yes, the dreaded chart: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1019457#post1019457

FYI, if you're going to review the chart, don't make the mistake of just looking at the manufacturer features. Read all the tabs first and understand what you're going to get from it and more importantly, what you're not going to get.

Obligatory chart hate:

Hi there, could you list some of the shorts cuts in the afore mentioned brands. I dont love one brand more than another but would like to know some of the differances. Thanks

Where to start?

The TDP for a military grade M4 carbine will have all of these things: Shot Peened Bolt; High Pressure Test (HPT) Bolt; Magnetic Particle Inspection (MPI) Bolt; Black Extractor Spring Insert (carbine); M16 Bolt Carrier; Properly Staked Gas Key; Milspec Barrel Steel (4150 or better); High Pressure Test (HPT) Barrel; Magnetic Particle Inspection (MPI) Barrel; Chrome Lined Chamber and Bore; 5.56 Chamber; 1:7 Rifling Twist; M4 Feedramps; "F" Height Front Sight Base; Taper Pins at Front Sight Base (FSB); Parkerize under FSB; Double Heat Shield Handguards; 1.14" Diameter Receiver Extension; Staked Castle Nut; "H" Buffer.

The entire TDP can't be followed 100% for a civilian carbine (no select fire capability). The TDP will specify small but important details, such as the grade of hex key bolts used to attach the gas key to the bolt carrier. It will also specify assembly steps and parts interchangeability. Just because something differs from the TDP doesn't mean it's automatically inferior, just different. The trick is to research that difference and determine if it's an improvement to the product, to the manufacturing process, or to the bottom line of a company that takes shortcuts. In some instances, it may be cost effective to buy a cheaper brand and make some inexpensive upgrades. In many cases an inferior brand will cost as much as a quality brand due to marketing hype and uninformed opinions. The trick is to know the difference.

 

[Seadog]

Thanks. I was checking out the chart. Its pretty detailed with good links. Lets me know a bit more about mine. Thanks

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

Yes, the dreaded chart: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1019457#post1019457

FYI, if you're going to review the chart, don't make the mistake of just looking at the manufacturer features. Read all the tabs first and understand what you're going to get from it and more importantly, what you're not going to get.

Obligatory chart hate:

Where to start?

The TDP for a military grade M4 carbine will have all of these things: Shot Peened Bolt; High Pressure Test (HPT) Bolt; Magnetic Particle Inspection (MPI) Bolt; Black Extractor Spring Insert (carbine); M16 Bolt Carrier; Properly Staked Gas Key; Milspec Barrel Steel (4150 or better); High Pressure Test (HPT) Barrel; Magnetic Particle Inspection (MPI) Barrel; Chrome Lined Chamber and Bore; 5.56 Chamber; 1:7 Rifling Twist; M4 Feedramps; "F" Height Front Sight Base; Taper Pins at Front Sight Base (FSB); Parkerize under FSB; Double Heat Shield Handguards; 1.14" Diameter Receiver Extension; Staked Castle Nut; "H" Buffer.

The entire TDP can't be followed 100% for a civilian carbine (no select fire capability). The TDP will specify small but important details, such as the grade of hex key bolts used to attach the gas key to the bolt carrier. It will also specify assembly steps and parts interchangeability. Just because something differs from the TDP doesn't mean it's automatically inferior, just different. The trick is to research that difference and determine if it's an improvement to the product, to the manufacturing process, or to the bottom line of a company that takes shortcuts. In some instances, it may be cost effective to buy a cheaper brand and make some inexpensive upgrades. In many cases an inferior brand will cost as much as a quality brand due to marketing hype and uninformed opinions. The trick is to know the difference.

Excellent post!

I would add one more thing. Items such as Bolts that are produced/procured by the top tier companies are all HPT/MPI tested. Some of the mid grade companies only do this to samples (every 10th one for example). Some of the low grade companies do not test them at all.

 

[Honeybee]

Like I told you guys years ago, AR's are just a fad and will fade out just as quickly as they exploded onto the market. Well it has taken a little bit longer than I expected but well...it's time for the next fad.

My guessis that it will be concealable high tec electromagnetic pulse generators or restoring rusty folding knives.

 

[AllOut]

Sorry for the Off Topic stuff
Anyway, I haven't had much issue finding any AR stuff. Not that I've been looking everywhere for everything but I just picked up a stripped lower from RedDog (BANG) Friday. I typically look for used but everything I wanted new this year I've found pretty quick.

 

[Nighthawk]

What chart? Is there a chart?

Is it written by an accountant, that shoots on weekends, or by someone that is really in the know, that works with different firearms every day for a living?

This should get this thread moving..

 

[kevin brown]

That's because we are forced to buy insurance
How many people do you know that actually carry full coverage on a vehicle that is payed off?

I always have carried full coverage Ins on my car that are paid off. I had a 2004 PT paid cash for it it was worth $7500. Paid $6000. For it and I had full coverage on it. So if I had an accident it would still get some money out of it.

 

[Wormydog1724]

I think he's just pimping his sponsors.

Do I know you? You are wrong. I am not "sponsored" by any of those companies mentioned in my post (wish I was!). I see quality and I stick with it and I try to spread the 'good word' to others, which is often met with angst and disbelief that quality actually costs more. Imagine that.
As the great Mike Gundy once said "Get your facts straight!"

BCM tries to follow the Technical Data Package (TDP) for the AR platform as a military arm. "Mil-Spec" is a meaningless term in the AR market. It's so overly tortured and misused that it's lost all value. Only Colt and FN actually have the TDP, but it's easy to find out what all goes into it. Very few supposed "good" AR manufacturers do this. Colt, FN, Knight's Armament, Daniel Defense and BCM readily come to mind. Upper tier manufacturers like Noveske, Larue, Knight's Armamment, White Oak Armament, JP Rifles, etc., make rifles that don't necessarly follow the TDP, but they meet or exceed it in every respect. As for the BCM, google the "BCM Filthy 14" for an example of why it's considerd so highly.

Companies like Spikes, DPMS, RRA, Bushmaster, Stag, Olympic Arms, Del-Ton, Model 1 Sales, CMMG, etc., take shortcuts in various areas that allow them to hold down costs. That's not necessarily always a bad thing, particularly for the AR hobbyist. However, it's not a good idea for a hard use defense or battle implement. There's a reason you don't see these deployed on the battlefield.

You'll find a lot of hate and angst on the subject, particularly among those that get either butthurt that their's isn't considered top tier, or the elitists who say that any non-top tier AR is an abomination. I prefer to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of the various makes and models, understand what each needs to perform a specific set of functions and plan accordingly. I've owned Olympic, Bushmaster, DPMS, etc. stuff before, but I now own Colt, Noveske and BCM. The others did what I needed them to do at the time, but my expectations are more "rigorous" now.

Hope this helps.

This is exactly what I was referring to as "better quality". There probably isn't anything wrong with RRA in general. But I know that BCM, Colt, Noveske, and Daniel Defense are higher up on the "CHART!!" due to the reasons mentioned above. The failures that are commonly brought up on forums across the internet are of those companies mentioned above that take shortcuts, or by some frakengun that some tactical dildo built. Nothing wrong with frakenguns, I own several. Building or buying must be with quality parts or else you're just setting yourself up for failure. Maybe in 100 rounds, maybe in 10,000 rounds. But with BCM, I know that is something I absolutely do not have to worry about.

 

[Norman]

What chart? Is there a chart?

Is it written by an accountant, that shoots on weekends, or by someone that is really in the know, that works with different firearms every day for a living?

This should get this thread moving..

I presume you already know the answer to your questions? Does one have to be a HSLD ninja to understand the TDP's of an M4? Although he's pretty widely respected throughout the internets, I don't believe Rob_S is an operator.






To ;Hump66, I don't personally know Wormydog, but I've read his posts and seen pics of his gear enough to know he knows his schit. That, and I'm a BCM brand whore too, with good.reason.