Embarasing noob AR question....

[Danny]

AHHH Lillysdad...it isn't always about you! For instance Danny posted this "A word of caution. After you lock back the bolt, always push the charging handle back until it locks in place. You could damage it if you slap the bolt release and the handle is all the way back."

I was responding to just this above, not the "it can be damaged if it isn't latched" from your "real world" post.

Talking about " the real world" I have seen 6 charging handles bent by doing the "tactical, real world left handed slap" (as taught by several "real world tactical trainers" as a clearance drill) on charging handles with those big old "TACTICAL" latches, like Badger Bravo, etc.. Once the charging handle is bent the gun won't run.....in any world, real or not! If you haven't seen this, you should get out of the real world more often.

Are you sure you aren't related to someone in Alaska who also is in L.E.?

If you'll read my post again, you'll see that I said this....

You could damage it, or you, if you slap the bolt release and the handle is all the way back.

I didn't say you would damage it. I said it was possible. I also said "or you" in that same sentence. Ever slap a bolt forward with the charging handle in the rearward position and have some part of your body in the way? Try that and let us know what happens.

 

[TallPrairie]

Hey TSQUARE, as someone who is maybe one and a half steps past total AR noobhood (i.e., I am still pretty novice), I have a couple random tips for you. They are important, and nobody might have told them to you (was true for me). They are so basic that knowledgeable folks would find 'em so obvious they might not mention.

1. The rifles like to run wet -- dribble, like, 8 to 10 fat drops of CLP (or whatever decent gun oil you use) right onto the bolt with the dust cover open, then rack the bolt back and forth a few times to distribute the lube through the action. I thought my AR was a bit of a jammer, then a fellow actually explained to me how much lube the action likes -- problems immediately disappeared.

2. Learn ASAP to break down the bolt assembly all the way for cleaning. You need to clean the little extractor buried in there, clean around the firing pin, etc. If your gun's instruction manual sucks on explaining this, like mine did, look on Youtube for a clear how-to video, buy a DVD, or (best of all) ask a knowledgeable AR shooter to actually walk you through the process with a rifle. Once you see it done once or twice it's no prob. But you gotta do it, so you can clean properly. It ain't an AK.

If you already knew all that, sorry for wasting your time. The above is what I wish somebody had told me when I bought my AR.

 

[BrandonM]

It really won't hurt anything. The military actually teaches soldiers to release the charging handle from it's reward position and let it fly forward to chamber a round as part of the immediate action drill for a malfunction. They teach the accronym SPORTS which stands for:

1. Slaps gently upward on the magazine to ensure it is fully seated, and the magazine follower is not jammed.
2. Pulls the charging handle fully to the rear.
3. Observes for the ejection of a live round or expended cartridge. (If the weapon fails to eject a cartridge, perform remedial action.)
4. Releases the charging handle (do not ride it forward).
5. Taps the forward assist assembly to ensure bolt closure.
6. Squeezes the trigger and tries to fire the rifle.

(FM 3-22.9, Apr 2003)

As I read this all I can think of is "it rubs the lotion on its skin."

 

[KurtM]

Okay Danny, I did! I used a 2x4 instead of my hand or arm cause I am not ATAS, I am just a wimpy guy. I held the 2x4 about 2" from where the charging handle would be when fully closed, and 3" from closed, and dropped the bolt with the charging handle all the way back, I did 25 reps per side. It didn't bend, it still works, and the 2x4 wasn't very chewed up, now granted the impediment to the charging handle wouldn't let a round chamber, but the handle it's-self is OK, and I don't think I would have been injured very much if at all, but it would give a bit of a pain penalty to remind you not to do it, but there it is. I had never heard these things before, and I like to test things out, for myself so I have a basis in fact to work from.

So what does it take to bend a G.I charging handle? Well since I have a bunch of them I decided to find out ( once again this is a single test subject but hey it was G.I. and meets all the specs the U.S. gov. have for the M-16 that were handed down from Mt. Sinai in 1964...seems out dated to me but any spec 46 years old can't be bad!). I put the handle in a vice so that the front 2 " was supported by the vice jaws (just like in the rifle) and with a strain gage put a side load on it right out at the T. It took 47 pounds of side load to bend it to the point, that when put in the rifle it would bind the bolt slightly. This is almost 3X more force than the main spring in the stock can generate, so we can see why that just closing the bolt with the charging handle back and hitting something just won't cause the failures mentioned.

Which brings us back to Lillys. I never said that using the left hand wasn't the way to go. What I said was I had seen 6 charging handles bent by slapping the OVER-SIZED TACTICAL LATCH ONLY with the left hand, kind of like grabbing just the big old latch and yanking on just that one thing, NOT the WHOLE charging handle T or even just putting your thumb behind it, this applies quite a side load to the charging handle, when under stress, or trying to look ATAS and doing clearance drills this way....how much you ask??? Well using Mr. Strain Gage again, and putting the carbine in a vice so we could measure side deflection of the good old left handed "tac latch slap" it was quite easy to generate 35-45 of side load to the handle if done briskly and well over 63 pounds of side load force when done all out. As you can see this FAR exceeds the bend limit of the regular handle ( once again this is a single test subject, and I am a wimpy guy and not very strong so I am sure some guys could and do apply MUCH more side load). So I think if we are to do the manipulation left handed we need to use the CORRECT technique, instead of a HUGE "tac latch".

B.T.W. the big Tac Latches Like the Badger will usually break the role pin that hold them in after a while and that is why Bravo re-designed the pivot point for the latch...which DOES NOT MEET MIL SPEC!!! ( exceeds perhaps, but it is still out of spec!) I have seen two group guys bend their Bravo handles while doing clearance drills the wrong way...so yes they bend!

Note: Only two charging handles and 3 roll pins were damaged in this test and the rest of the rilfe is OKAY!

 

[Danny]

Okay Danny, I did! I used a 2x4 instead of my hand or arm cause I am not ATAS, I am just a wimpy guy. I held the 2x4 about 2" from where the charging handle would be when fully closed, and 3" from closed, and dropped the bolt with the charging handle all the way back, I did 25 reps per side. It didn't bend, it still works, and the 2x4 wasn't very chewed up, now granted the impediment to the charging handle wouldn't let a round chamber, but the handle it's-self is OK, and I don't think I would have been injured very much if at all, but it would give a bit of a pain penalty to remind you not to do it, but there it is. I had never heard these things before, and I like to test things out, for myself so I have a basis in fact to work from.

So what does it take to bend a G.I charging handle? Well since I have a bunch of them I decided to find out ( once again this is a single test subject but hey it was G.I. and meets all the specs the U.S. gov. have for the M-16 that were handed down from Mt. Sinai in 1964...seems out dated to me but any spec 46 years old can't be bad!). I put the handle in a vice so that the front 2 " was supported by the vice jaws (just like in the rifle) and with a strain gage put a side load on it right out at the T. It took 47 pounds of side load to bend it to the point, that when put in the rifle it would bind the bolt slightly. This is almost 3X more force than the main spring in the stock can generate, so we can see why that just closing the bolt with the charging handle back and hitting something just won't cause the failures mentioned.

Which brings us back to Lillys. I never said that using the left hand wasn't the way to go. What I said was I had seen 6 charging handles bent by slapping the OVER-SIZED TACTICAL LATCH ONLY with the left hand, kind of like grabbing just the big old latch and yanking on just that one thing, NOT the WHOLE charging handle T or even just putting your thumb behind it, this applies quite a side load to the charging handle, when under stress, or trying to look ATAS and doing clearance drills this way....how much you ask??? Well using Mr. Strain Gage again, and putting the carbine in a vice so we could measure side deflection of the good old left handed "tac latch slap" it was quite easy to generate 35-45 of side load to the handle if done briskly and well over 63 pounds of side load force when done all out. As you can see this FAR exceeds the bend limit of the regular handle ( once again this is a single test subject, and I am a wimpy guy and not very strong so I am sure some guys could and do apply MUCH more side load). So I think if we are to do the manipulation left handed we need to use the CORRECT technique, instead of a HUGE "tac latch".

B.T.W. the big Tac Latches Like the Badger will usually break the role pin that hold them in after a while and that is why Bravo re-designed the pivot point for the latch...which DOES NOT MEET MIL SPEC!!! ( exceeds perhaps, but it is still out of spec!) I have seen two group guys bend their Bravo handles while doing clearance drills the wrong way...so yes they bend!

Note: Only two charging handles and 3 roll pins were damaged in this test and the rest of the rilfe is OKAY!

See, you did it wrong. Let the charging handle catch your arm, or side just below the ribs. You'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[mike_pinto]

I can vouch for KurtM. He is wimpy and doesn't know crap about guns.... Speaking of which, your rifle looked fine on tv the other day when you were on that 3gun nation show. Also, when does your instructional video come out with those cameo shots of all your Nordic Rifle championship wins?
See you in Vegas where you are in the shootoff of the best 50 3-gunners in the world. As a former marine corps armorer and world class gunsmith, I sure hope you do well and dont bend any charging handles in the process!

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

As I read this all I can think of is "it rubs the lotion on its skin."

Maybe that Silence of the Lambs bad guy got out of prison and is writing manuals for the Army now.

 

[KurtM]

Are you KIDDING Danny???? I couldn't take just one of those hits in the ribs or arm...hell I cry when I get a paper cut! ...thats why I like computers soooooo much the keys done cut or snag, but my wrists and hands are starting to hurt. Durring testing I had to stop several times to remove splinters from the 2x4 in my fingers, and then 20 minutes of ice....well... ok... with some Scotch in the ice, for the pain.

 

[Wall]

Are you KIDDING Danny???? I couldn't take just one of those hits in the ribs or arm...hell I cry when I get a paper cut! ...thats why I like computers soooooo much the keys done cut or snag, but my wrists and hands are starting to hurt. Durring testing I had to stop several times to remove splinters from the 2x4 in my fingers, and then 20 minutes of ice....well... ok... with some Scotch in the ice, for the pain.

you should've used gloves, we wouldn't want our Oklahoma representative getting his rear handed to him by the likes of Taran Butler & Micheal Voigt because of a few splinters.

Good luck Kurt

 

[mmchambers06]

...ATAS...ATAS...

Australian Tsunami Alert System? I must be really low speed because I have no idea what you're talking about!

Interesting note on good ol' standard charging handles vs. big goofy tac latches. Much appreciate you breaking some stuff for our entertainment.