Ron Paul!

[MaddSkillz]

If he can allow "his chosen people" to be raped, families torn apart and murdered in despicable ways (via the holocaust) then what's gonna happen to those not chosen by him? Sounds scary.

God's "blessings" are based on individual perception and used as tools to influence people for political and personal gain. Nothing more.

 

[soonerwings]

That implies that we control Israel and not the other way around. I don't see that.
So, we go after Iran and naturally after Syria as soon as we are done with Iran (another neocon dream) and then Somalia and then ...you fill in the blanks. Perpetual warfare.
What can I say, I value the lives of our young men more than that.

Are you assuming that Syria and Somalia are going to declare stated goals of genocide of another people and develop nuclear weapons? Are you implying that Syria and Somalia are furnishing the weapons used to kill American troops?

 

[soonerwings]

If he can allow "his chosen people" to be raped, families torn apart and murdered in despicable ways (via the holocaust) then what's gonna happen to those not chosen by him? Sounds scary.

God's "blessings" are based on individual perception and used as tools to influence people for political and personal gain. Nothing more.

You're assuming a God that hasn't allowed people to have free will OR no God at all. Your choice, but the statement that blessings are only tools used to influence people can neither be proved or disproved. Personally, I think you're quite wrong. I view many things as blessings in my life that are given to me by God and are not used to influence people for gain.

 

[soonerwings]

Somewhere in here we diverted our discussion away from Ron Paul. I don't think he'd worry too much about about the PLO or Iran, so long as we didn't go about pissing the world off as much as we seem to have done the last 60ish years. I'm not an isolationist but there is something to be said about keeping our noses out of others' business.

Well stated. However, I still believe in the pre-emptive strike if someone has it coming. Long occupations are stupid and costly.

 

[MaddSkillz]

You're assuming a God that hasn't allowed people to have free will OR no God at all. Your choice, but the statement that blessings are only tools used to influence people can neither be proved or disproved. Personally, I think you're quite wrong. I view many things as blessings in my life that are given to me by God and are not used to influence people for gain.

Blessings and "blessings" are different. One is real while the other is not but perceived as such.

If you want to read my thoughts on "free will" and the like, you might want to read this thread if you haven't already.

 

[cjjtulsa]

I'm just saying that most of our problems are coming from decades of irresponsibility on our part. Claims that "the war on terror" or the "use of the United States as an Israeli tool" are more of a threat to our liberties than our own stupid decision making seem (to me) to be an attempt to deflect responsibility for our problem away from ourselves. Our problems start here at home with us. Not in someone else's home with them.

Exactly – and no one’s blaming others; some of the pain we’re feeling here is a result of some of our foreign policy decisions.

Quite honestly, if we'd leave Israel the hell alone, they'd beat the living crap out of the people giving them problems, so maybe it's best for everyone else in the region that we've repeatedly urged Israel to show restraint. Perhaps our stance isn't as "pro-Israel" as it's made out to be. [/ QUOTE]As for Iran, I think they're more of a problem than just about anyone else in the region and if anyone should be dealt with it's them. They've been supplying weapons to Baath insurgents and Al Quaeda from the get go. These weapons have killed too many American troops. If you don't see a problem with that, that's fine too. I also don't think that any nation who has stated a desired goal of genocide should be allowed to build nuclear facilities.

 

[dutchwrangler]

As I said, the Christian, neocon right has this thing in their head that if we support Israel it translates into the US being favored by God. I grew up hearing that line of thought as a youngster going to church. Which brings up the question if Israel, as it now stands and has since 1948, is actually comprised of "God's chosen"? As Ron Paul stated in the lastest made for TV debate, Israel ought to survive on it's own merits without the US standing behind them. They serve no useful purpose for us. No other sovereign nation does. We on the other hand, serve their needs just fine. US blood and money reduces the number of their enemies and has been doing so instensely for the past ten years. Our "misfortune" is their fortune.

 

[soonerwings]

Blessings and "blessings" are different. One is real while the other is not but perceived as such.

If you want to read my thoughts on "free will" and the like, you might want to read this thread if you haven't already.

I appreciate the distinction between blessings and "blessings". I made it through the first 5 pages of that tread and I disagree with your view of free will, but it's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. THAT is the sort of entitlement that I don't mind. Anyhow, that particular topic has little to do with this thread so I'll let it drop.

 

[cjjtulsa]

I'm just saying that most of our problems are coming from decades of irresponsibility on our part. Claims that "the war on terror" or the "use of the United States as an Israeli tool" are more of a threat to our liberties than our own stupid decision making seem (to me) to be an attempt to deflect responsibility for our problem away from ourselves. Our problems start here at home with us. Not in someone else's home with them.

Exactly – and no one’s blaming others; some of the pain we’re feeling here is a result of some of our foreign policy decisions.

Quite honestly, if we'd leave Israel the hell alone, they'd beat the living crap out of the people giving them problems, so maybe it's best for everyone else in the region that we've repeatedly urged Israel to show restraint. Perhaps our stance isn't as "pro-Israel" as it's made out to be.

Possibly, but I think many Americans and many more people worldwide think otherwise.

As for Iran, I think they're more of a problem than just about anyone else in the region and if anyone should be dealt with it's them. They've been supplying weapons to Baath insurgents and Al Quaeda from the get go. These weapons have killed too many American troops. If you don't see a problem with that, that's fine too. I also don't think that any nation who has stated a desired goal of genocide should be allowed to build nuclear facilities.

I wonder how many Russians were killed with weapons that were supplied by an outside influence during the 80s? How many Palestinians have been wounded or killed by U.S.-supplied weapons? Do we need to be “dealt with” as well? I’d certainly agree: too many Americans have been killed by smuggled weapons. But then, smuggled weapons to insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan don’t kill American soldiers that are home where they should be.

Yeah – we’ve heard Mahmoud spout off about genocide. "But Mahmoud is insane!" No, he's not. He's an idiot, but not a madman. Kind of like that Kim Jong be-Illin' over in North Korea, who plays Punxsutawney Phil every so often and pops his head up out of his hole, rattles his sabers, and collects his "be nice" check from the U.S., then retreats again to a long series of bad hair days. Biggest difference is Ahmaneedajob doesn't get extorsion payments and has marginally better hair. I’m not sure he has any plans to “wipe Israel from the face of the earth”. I think he’s just lipping off to try and provoke them. So far he’s doing a pretty fair job.

 

[soonerwings]

As I said, the Christian, neocon right has this thing in their head that if we support Israel it translates into the US being favored by God. I grew up hearing that line of thought as a youngster going to church. Which brings up the question if Israel, as it now stands and has since 1948, is actually comprised of "God's chosen"? As Ron Paul stated in the lastest made for TV debate, Israel ought to survive on it's own merits without the US standing behind them. They serve no useful purpose for us. No other sovereign nation does. We on the other hand, serve their needs just fine. US blood and money reduces the number of their enemies and has been doing so instensely for the past ten years. Our "misfortune" is their fortune.

Two points.

#1. Do you really believe that NO other nation could serve a useful purpose for the United States? I'd say that's false as we trade with quite a few nations to our benefit.

#2 Are you saying that we should only help nations that prove to be "useful" to us? I think that goes against some of the ideals that make this nation great.